 clipped from mparent7777-2.blogspot.com
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Posted by Righthand July 02 2007 No comment
Zasel 7-2-2007 6.05pm
Righthand, the photos are ghastly, and I am glad you are reminding so many of us what this tragic situation is all about on the bottom line.
I am a Jew, and I support the existence of Israel living in peace with its neighbours. But I am totally against this illegal occupation, and the heinous and inhumane manner the Israeli government is treating the Palestinians. They act as if each and every Palestinian is a terrorist, when the fact is that most of them are just trying to live their lives and support their families. This grave injustice must come to and end, yet when I say these things to many of my Jewish friends I am called an anti-Semite.
I publish an online magazine of Jewish culture, lifestyle and politics, all of which I do as a labour of love. Do I sound like much on an anti-Semite to you?
Arifsali 07-02-2007 7.21pm
zasel, can you share the link of your online magazine?
RecordSage 07-02-2007 9.38pm
zasel, you should take a trip to Israel and see for yourself instead of reading BS generated by pro-palestinian press. I think you'd find things quite a bit different.
There have been palestinians on record asking Israelis to come back and restore some normalcy to Gaza. Do you have an explanation for that one?
There's a good reason why Israeli's are most cautious when it comes to palestinians... remember it was them that invented the modern version of terrorism. If you take your guard down with the terrorists - you die. As simple as that.
Have you seen many Jews jumping borders and blowing themselves up in mosques? Have you seen ANY? Have you seen a little palestinian girl, a 3-yr old, who said she dislikes Jews and worse? You expect Israel to hug people who create monsters from day 1 and deliberately so?
I'm not advocating you defending Israel & the Jews because you're a Jew... but I think it's very inappropriate to beat the drum as this article does... check it out for real, talking to some Israelis and then see which side you want to join and then you can really see if you're behind-the-scenes anti-semite or just somewhat uninformed.
Righthand 07-02-2007 10.15pm
No, you are not anti-Semite. Like me and many other Jews, you are anti-Zionist. This deliberate misnomer is a very important part of how good Jews get a bad name.
I know that the problem is that Zionism has been high jacked by the right wing fascist parties. The fascism is manifested in the extraordinary one party line of Stalinism at its worst. Of course many of today's leaders are former Communists, so they know the drill well having been office holders in the old USSR.
Other than the latest arrivals from where ever, who will only prosper is they replace the 'native' Palestinians in the 'food chair' of Israeli society, this zealot style Zionism is not representative of the ordinary Israelite. Not that most Americans understand this. Because the party Stalinist line is so consistent and powerful, most Americans believe what they promulgate.
As usual in such cases, the middle ground loses out, leaving weak righteous Jews pitted against the all powerful Stalinists.
Axelsenzon 07-03-2007 1.33am
Zasel, i do NOT want you to think of this as purely my ideology and compared to recordsage, this will not make sense but: to criticize you for maybe something you've expected but possibly not experienced, how could you possibly write anything on jewish life, you being openly homosexual? the two don't exactly go together. and you clearly do not speak for the majority of the small section of the world that calls themselves jewish, so why would you try and call yourself a voice for their "culture, lifestyle and politics"? what you should probably do is go visit israel and learn a little bit about their culture first hand. you know, i used to hear the word 'zionist' when i was younger and it had one definition, only lately has it become something of criticism... something to be hated and discriminated against. i hear that word now and it reminds me of what it used to mean not long ago.
Israeli hospitals will treat Islamics (note: you really aren't using the word palestine correctly) whether or not they are supposed to be in the state. And i understand that being from a liberal/open-minded town, you get to pick and chose what you're open-minded about, but try, maybe, to see things for what they are and not whats popular.
Arifsali 07-03-2007 4.59am
Holy Cow! Allow me to share my astonishment. What does being homosexual have to do with Jewish life or identity? Or any identity for that matter? I'm lost.
Inagatt 07-03-2007 12.34pm
and could any one please answer arifsali's question i am lost too
Morey 07-03-2007 7.24pm
Do you actually believe this, my friend? Which of Israel's leaders is a former communist? Ehud Olmert was born in Palestine in 1945. Tzipi Livni, the Foreign Affairs minister, was born in Tel Aviv. Ehud Barak, MInister of Defence and former PM was born in Palestine in 1942. Shimon Peres, President and former PM, was born in Poland in 1923 and moved to Palestine when he was 11. At least one former minister, Natan Sharansky, was a Soviet dissident. And 12 ministers are Arab-Israelis!
Just curious, but do you make this stuff up yourself or is it from a Palestinian propaganda website?
Axelsenzon 07-03-2007 10-03pm
Arifsali, firstly don't paraphrase what I wrote because I started that saying its not my ideology. The truth is, I couldn't care less about how people live their lives, personally. But, I a) do not think anyone should try and speak for a group of people unless he was appointed to do so, and even then it's not always simple. And b) it is against the Abrahamic faiths to be gay. Did you not know that? So, it is hard to call yourself a good Christian/Muslim (if they dont kill you)/Jew and break one of their fundamental principles let alone say you speak for these people.
Thats all my criticism was, I'm not trying to be hate filled myself- I have no reason to be. But, he talking a lot of sh*t that is bs. Example; "they just want to live their lives" oh, ok, thats why they democratically elect hamas its major political party. A group that is well known for their suicide bombings for the past 20 years and their hatred toward people and other religions, yeah they just want to live- give me a break, shit like that is said because people dont expect you to say anything otherwise, but the facts are against you.
Axelsenzon 07-03-2007 10.06 pm
Now,
to go on a drop more. While I cannot say the same is true for cristianity or islam, one should actually not have a problem being homosexual in Judaism, if you learn and understand the talmud and gemara (kabala- books on spiritualty, gemara- books of law/litigation). Why that is, is not so simple. But I can explain if you want.
Righthand 07-05-2007 10.36pm
For Morey for now, while I collect together my info..
Israeli Agent in United States Helped Moscow or
Israeli Agent in United States Helped Moscow
Israel's Declaration of Independence Written by Moscow's Agent
Vanunu and Pollard: Hero vs. Spy
Russian espionage in Israel:
No official response to media reports on Israeli visa refusal to Russian diplomat
Russian diplomat not welcomed to work in Israel, secret service says
Shin Bet man in KGB – Ma’ariv writes about Viktor Grayevsky
Israeli Security Services: Russian Embassy's Secretary is a Spy
[url=http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=770]Israeli PM Worked for the Kremlin's I
RecordSage 07-05-2007 10.41pm
righthand, you're completely wrong on the soviet-israel connection. The Russians were always friend with the arabs... and will continue to be so. There's no way you could be a friend to both.
Arifsali 07-06-2007 1.57am
Anyway, I don't intend to be off topic here, I'm sure righthand can answer the points you have raised with him, and I will also let a faithful homosexual counter your above point as well because I obviously cannot do justice.
Axelsenzon 07-06-2007 4-02am
Arifasli,
I dont understand. Do you read only half of what I say?
Please try and read my posts again as I paint the "Abrahamic faiths" to cristianity/judaism/islamism like you may remember learning in a history or philosophy or socio-economic or religious or other classes; I'm assuming you've studied one of these and are therefore familiar with and understand where the classification comes from- i didn't event this term. Next, there is no Abrahamic religion, the truth is I wouldn't be callous and insulting to reward any/only one of the 3 above mentioned as the only Abrahamic religion. None of them would appreciate it.
Further, i'm am not looking to discredit or insult anyone specifically, in fact, its should remind of how silly prefabricated ideas being force ably put on someone can be.
But, it is illegal in all three of those religions to be a homosexual- i'm not advocating what it says just reminding you. Christianity, i don't know what the punishment is on earth but i know they say you cant go to heaven. Islam, punishable by death. Judaism, either punishable by (up to and including) 49 lashes or death, depending.
I really dont know what your arguing if I've mistaken what you've said.
Axelsenzon 07-06-2007 4.06am
arifasli, i'm reading you post again and I'm truly not understanding something:
"God of Abrahamic faith, the One who is above all else, cannot be against the homosexuals, in fact, this godhead is beyond being against or for anyone"
have you read the bible/qu'ran/torah? what your saying is just not true. read that thing again and tell me he's not against things. Try specifically, leviticous, numbers, deuteronamy to name a few.
Righthand 07-06-2007 6.44am
Axelsenzon,
I have some difficultly understanding what you write. It is difficult to reply when it's not clear what the poster intended to write. I'm sure that all fault for this lies with me? However...
What you wrote is clear even if your intent may not be reflected in the words.
"Compared to RecordSage" This means what? You agree/disagree with him?
In your opinion, are Jews exclude from being homosexual? Is this notion exclusive only to Jews? As all of life has homosexuality, this would make Jews abnormal, if true!
Righthand 07-06-2007 9.03am
This is similar to saying to a child "stick your hand in the fire and see what happens."
You have totally disrespected his homosexuality as a Jew and you advocate that he go to one of the most anti-gay societies to learn "their culture first hand." Unbelievable!
Why would you advocate this? Have you been to Israel? Why? Are you prepared to disclose that you are Jewish. Why should you? Well, you are preaching to a very courageous man who discloses that he is both homosexual and a Jew.
If you were a Jew you should know that for a large number of Jews, the state of Israel is an ABOMINATION, so for sexual and religious reason, I do not believe your advice is wise. Check out "Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews protest" here.
Axelsenzon 07-06-2007 5.18pm
this is not at all like a child saying stick your hand a fire. for one, i am not a child. two, israel is not a fire in that a) not every one that goes to israel is preverbally 'burned', it is not a guarantee of death or injury like you are having me infer b) we are talking about a culture, do you understand what I am saying. You think you know what it is like there, but it is not as...you may suspect it is. Do you think you know what it is like in Tokyo because you see pictures of it and read about it, do you know what it was like to live in ancient Greece because your text books tell you what it was like. You'd be ignorant. The best you can do, w/o being there, is fathom the actual experience. Again, when it comes to knowledge vs experience, experience goes a lot farther.
Next,
obviously i've been to israel and numerous times, chump. I cannot preach hypocrisy and then carry it out myself.
Further,
you source yourself as an authority on the matter. Do you have anything aside from your own clipmarks to back what your talking about? And to explain more, the small hasidic movement that rallies with the arabs during the israeli day parade in ny (which i've gone to at least 10 times and walked), do so for reasons that you probably would not really get. But the simple reason is not that it is an abomination, the state, but they do not use a beis din nor has the messia come. These are both stupid reasons, and you seem to be, in other clips and above post (...no, not anti-jewish, anti-zionist...{wtf that means}) that you claim fundamentalism is a problem. Can you agree on that?
Now fundamentalism is a problem, unless the more fundamental extremists agree w/ur cause. Visa vi, what is more fundamental than believing a nation cannot govern themselves because the messia has not come yet?
Axelsenzon 07-06-2007 5.32pm
I dont care enough about how other people live their lives. Please understand this.
But, to your question, saying that a gay jew is brave for being a gay jew is like saying a man is brave for being a black cristian.
Is there a choice in either of those combinations or situations? What you just said is anti-racism. Like I heard the other day a guy talking he said (in front of his black g/f none the less) "the Irish in that neighborhood over there are worse than the blacks"
do you understand why she got offended? Your doing the same thing.
And again, b/c you guys dont seem to take in what I say, I dont have a problem w/him. I have a problem w/"self-appointed' "speakers of the house" and if he's trying to tell people about his jewish politics, religion, culture. I have no problem attacking him like a politician and pointing out continuity flaws. Understand. How about a vegan protester that only eats poultry... Or maybe, a Pro-Life politician whose wife had an abortion... or yoga teacher that smokes on the weekend, only. Take you pick, I don't care personally I dont have enough of a basis to not like him for that. I'm pointing out continuity problems and hypocrisy. If anyone wants to follow any of the 3 abrahamic religions, one cant be homosexual. And therefore, if they are so living that way- dont appoint yourself as a speaker for these religious sects.
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Axelsenzon 07-06-2007 5.43pm
and righthand,
" "The two don't exactly go together"
In your opinion, are Jews exclude from being homosexual? Is this notion exclusive only to Jews? As all of life has homosexuality, this would make Jews abnormal, if true!"
you wrote this right?
are f-ing stupid? seriously, your becoming a waste of time. Please tell me your not either christian, jew, or muslim. because if you were raised as any of these three, you wouldn't say such an insulting statement.
Do not assume my philosophical beliefs to be so simple as you would be able to get it by reading/listening to half or less of what I say.
No, it is not Judaism exclusively, or my own opinion. But rather, a law given into all three of the religions I just mentioned, says (leviticous), "do not lay with a man the way you would with a woman."
I'm sure you've heard that from religious nutbags before to discredit homosexuality, thats where they get it from.
Righthand -7-06-2007 6.47pm
Axelsenzon, @ 8.44am today I wrote to you...
Well, I was being charitable. If english is your first language or you are not a child, as you claim, then Houston, we have a problem. And I have no desire to solve your problem. We do not appear to write the same language! Our minds could never met given your predigests, but our words cannot join either. So unless things improve at your end, I will not be responding further to you. Good luck.
Sparlingphoto 07-06-2007 7.11pm
This is CLIPMARXISM at it's finest! The whole concept of this clip is just utter p.c. bullshit! I refuse to engage in the blathering that follows!
I think the only rational response is 'huh'?
Pollard was a fruitcake that tried to sell secrets to both israel and the Soviets. He represented no one but himself. As for the Soviets, they certainly tried to ingratiate themselves into the Middle East in an attempt to minimize British influence. They even supplied weapons (through the Czechs) to the Israelis in 1948, but quickly realized the Israelis couldn't be bought off, and turned to the Arabs.
“Poalei Zion,” the Labor Zionists, were influential in the early years, establishing the Kibbutz collectives and socialized education and health care. But those old socialists are long dead; and Israel changed radically after Begin reformed the economy based on advice from Milton Friedman (which backfired). The only thing 'Soviet' in Israel are a few bombed out tanks in the Golan.
You really need to learn more before you make simplistic and uninformed generaliz
Righthand 07-06-2007 9.40pm
yours...
Daniel Ayalon, the ambassador of Israel, leaving his post in Washington told about this in an interview to the daily Ma’ariv.
More simplistic and uniformed generalization, anon.
Morey 07-06-2007 11.01pm
I'm still not understanding your point. I've seen and read enough interviews with Pollard that I still consider him a fruitcake. That he was recruited by someone within Israel is not relevant. They used him because they found someone who could be used. Israel conceded this, and the PM took responsibility, as a responsible leader should. Every country spies on every other country, or tries, including on their friends. If you don't believe that you're a fool. But, don't get me wrong. As an American citizen caught spying on the US he deserves to rot away in prison, but what does any of this have to do with fascist Soviets running Israel as you have claimed?
Oh, but that's just gun-running.
Axelsenzon -7-06-2007 11.06pm
righthand,
no, its ANTI-racism, to call someone brave for being a gay jew... that is not racist in itself. But if you read through what the hell ur saying, it's not correct in the majority of what homosexuals believe...that they were born that way. Do you get my analogy now, about calling a black man brave for being black. How about, "you can't blame the Irish for being drunks, its been going on for as long as they've been recording history. In fact they're a brave people for trying to function in todays society." Is there something wrong here? I'm sticking up for people born from Ireland.
Its anti-racist, your statement isn't but the basis of your statement is.
And an other thing. Israel is not tolerant of gay people?
What made you fabricate this one? YOU, clearly have not been to Israel (like you so asked me) and YOU clearly get your info from one maybe 2 sources. Because if you didn't, you'd know there are rapidly growing gay and lesbian communities in Israel and they, through their government's consent (not an illegally held rally), they HOLD A GAY PRIDE PARADE in tel aviv every year.
And, its easy to say you wont be responding to me after I say your becoming a waste of time first.
I'm predigest? if thats the pot calling the kennel black I dont know what is. Under why i use clipmarks, did you put "fascist neocon hate spreading" or is it something more subtle?
Righthand 07-07-2007 12.10
This was certainly not a problem for the Irish, Germans, Asians, Africans or who ever - other than your friends. The Irish were hardly off the boat before they were joining the US forces and dying before they were even citizens.
Contrast that today with numbers serving in Iraq. The Marshall Island are highest and your friends are lowest by a long way. Yet they often have the unique experience of fighting in a foreign army! Ironic, those wanting the Iraq invasion most, did the least fighting!
Back to your 2 and 2. Kenneth Barr, the son of a Holocaust Survivor, said, speaking of Pollard that ...
Righthand 07-07-2007 12.25am
Of course the truth is that Pollard himself was not directly responsible for the deaths of all those CIA agents behind the Iron Curtain that he is blamed for. No, they were sold out by the Israeli authorities! But then you knew that, right? And you know why too.
No wonder Pollard is hopping mad. He's blamed for something he didn't do. He forgets that without his initial treacherous action then Israel could not have sold out the CIA agents. This should reinforce his faith in a god of retribution!
Kenneth Barr, the son of a Holocaust Survivor, also said...
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Morey 07-09-2007 12.34am
Perhaps it's the way you jump around, but I'm still not totally getting you. So you're NOT accusing Jews of dual loyalties, you're just accusing Israel of having sold out the US by providing secrets to the Soviets. Is that it? I suppose it's possible even if it makes little sense, and ignores the dozens of other cases of Americans selling secrets to the Soviets, especially those cases of dual allegiance, like ethnic Chinese providing secrets to China (which I'm sure you don't believe happened, since only Jews have this problem.)
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Morey 07-09-2007 12.35am
Ok, whatever. As for the rest, lost of factual errors (eg. Jewish Americans have tended to serve in the US forces at a higher than average per capita level until recently...in fact, 50% of the first graduating class of Westpoint was Jewish...but it is true, numbers seem have dropped of late. There are many reasons for this, having more to do with education and where American Jews live - East Coast, which is very under-represented in the US Forces; also, Jewish Americans were, according to every poll I've seen, AGAINST the war in Iraq, which shouldn't be a surprise considering most American Jews support the Democrats. In fact, there's lots of evidence Israel didn't want the US to attack Iraq either. Israel, and this should be fairly obvious to anyone whose been following the news recently, preferred US pressure in IRAN.)
Morey 07-09-2007 12.35am
Anyway, I'm still not convinced you're anything more than an old-fashioned anti-Semite with access to the internet. Oh, I'm sure you don't HATE Jews; you just prefer them weak and powerless, like in the good, old days. We can't have Jews running around with guns and defending their rights or anything. oh, did I call you uninformed before? I take that back. I meant BADLY informed. You've hit many half-truths and created a conspiratorial web of mythic proportions. Well done. The rest of us will stick with whole facts, even if the conjectures are fun. Expand your horizons. As I've said, one or two articles on one or two websites doesn't make you 'informed' anymore than reading Readers Digest makes someone well-read.
Rant on, old man.
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Righthand 07-10-2007 4.11am
I have a lot more to contribute than to spend my time replying to your lengthy posts. The Pollard part started with your very loose...
Facts like Jewish Americans in Iraq are 1/10 of the number their proportion of the population represent. This is the lowest BY FAR of any group of Americans.
Righthand 07-10-2007 5.16am
So, would you please try and be factual and concise. You might try to be less personal. Nothing you say that is truthful will effect me but other may not understand. If you wish to examine my personal motive, then just ask me. It would me more productive than you guessing my thoughts. I would expect that you would do the same!
You might be correct that the ordinary American Jew didn't want the Iraq invasion. Unfortunately, their voice does not count! The voice only of the Israeli Lobby matters in America. The 'Party line' then and now about war with Iran is absolutely clear. The ass-kicking by Hizbollah has been forgotten already or the raw memory needs eliminating.
Of course I understand the difference between the Zionists in Israel and the mostly good Jews in America. If they were mainly Zionist then Israel wouldn't be big enough. It is the Zionists in America that is the problem, appearing to represent all Jews.
It is always easy to know when a Zionist has lost an argument. They revert to victimhood and abuse the Semite word. Can you not understand that you can no longer claim the victim tag.
The victims now are the Palestinians.
Righthand 07-10-2007 5.22am
And I do want to save you from yourselves.
This of course you will not get, but try. Think of when this camp guards were herding those unfortunate concentration camp persons to there daily choirs. And they went home each night to their families trying to put away their thoughts of what they were doing to fellow humans. Remembering the torture and broken bodies with the 11,000 detainees now in your formal concentration camps never mind the millions in the occupied territories. You are producing generations of inhuman young men and women.
Remember the returning Vietnam vets. Think of how broken they were in their minds. If you have any humanity remaining they these few words should touch a chord, but I won't hold my breath. Let me know and I'll expand on the help that you might need.
You say "the rest of us" What rest of us? You are representing WHO? You are sounding delusional!
RecordSage 07-10-2007 5.08
@righthand,
Based on your descriptions of 'concentration camps' - clearly you don't have your definitions straight, or you're losing your command of the language there or worse.
As for representation, you certainly aren't representing anyone anymore than morey does. Nobody's trying to play the 'victimhood' card - the Israeli's can kick any arab country's butt, if they choose to. They have the weapons, the brainpower and the know-how/experience, which none of their enemies can match. The only problem they have, hopefully a temporary one, is one of leadership, unwilling (not unable, but unwilling) to fight wars the way they used to be fought. Not unlike our own problem here.
The problems are certainly due to your kind of thinking, so at least in this area you can pat yourself on the back for some progress from your side. But, as it happened before, there's a limit to how much people will tolerate and their leaders will be based on that tolerance.
The Jews have been abused (to put it mildly) for centuries, and still managed to survive and actually do quite well... certainly based on percent of overall population, probably better than any other group, abused or not. And I'm sure they'll do fine, despite the idiocy surrounding them, rhetoric from their neighbors, people like you etc.
But, you know, if it keeps you going - keep it up...
RecordSage 07-10-2007 5.36pm
And since you're so into photos... look at these and try not to be so blatantly ignorant.
Righthand 07-10-2007 6.39pm
and again I say...And I do want to save you from yourselves.
If you did not get it the first time then I'll spell it out in a more graphic example that might help with the more dense Zionists, who advocate the continued mistreatment and torture of the Palestinians with 11,000 detainees at the moment.
CHILD SEX OFFENDERS.
It is well known that many child sex offender were themselves victims of child sex offenders. Should I need to say more? Well for those few that believe that the way to go is ...
Why should the Palestinians become the new abused?
And just for the record, Hizbollah do butt kicking, oh unwise one.
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Morey 07-10-2007 9.24pm
As for low numbers, it's a recent phenomenon that, as I wrote before, has much to do with low interest in military careers from East Coast Americans (and most American Jews live in the East Coast.) In other words, it's not a religious issue. There is also anecdotal evidence that
many Jewish servicemen are not declaring religion to avoid anti-Semitism in the forces. But, in the words of Jewish War Veterans Association: "Jews must still defend themselves against the canards of anti-Semites who continue to declare that Jews have not served in the U.S. Armed Forces. Thousands of Jews have died in combat for their country and thousands more have been wounded. Thousands of Jews have been awarded combat medals for performing their duty in time of war. Despite this record, the bigots continue to spread their lies. A study of Jewish participation in the military during World War II clearly indicates Jews served in the Armed Forces beyond their numerical proportion to the general population. They received more than 52,000 awards, including the coveted Congressional Medal of Honor. Jews participated in the Korean War, in Vietnam, and most recently in the Persian Gulf War."
Morey 07-10-2007 9.31pm
As for your Lobby paranoia, AIPAC has had little influence on US foreign policy compared to Saudi Arabia and the Oil Lobby.
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/04/jrm-pubnote-20070417
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0119-05.htm
And it is noteworthy that in the authorization of the use of force for the 1991 Gulf War, the majority of Jewish members of Congress voted against the war resolution, which is more than can be said for its non-Jewish members. In the more lopsided vote authorizing the use of force in October 2002, a majority of Jewish members of Congress did vote in the affirmative, though proportionately less so than did non-Jewish members
Morey 07-10-2007 9.33pm
And as most Jews support the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, Zionism is an important aspect of normative Jewish affairs, even if a minority is anti-Zionist. Dissent within Judaism is not only acceptable; it’s encouraged. Jews don’t silence internal criticism like other groups.
Please don't even try to talk to me about Holocaust victims. Did you lose family in the Holocaust? I'm betting the answer is no.
Or Vietnam vets. I'm related to several. Are you?
Morey 07-10-2007 9.37pm
If you're suggesting that Israel is breeding a new generation of terrorists by incarcerating Palestinians, you may be right. It's a terrible catch-22. it doesn't change the fact that most of those in Israeli Jails have blood on their hands. If some don't, and have been detained in defiance of the judicial process, that's a serious problem. But, it's a problem that gets swept under the rug because of Palestinian violence. Things changed substantially after the second intifada. After the first one, too. True, there was still a benign occupation, even if it often benefited the Arabs (with jobs and essential services) but they had a right to demand independence (and some form of return or compensation for lost property.) Did that right also condone bus bombings of civilians? I don't think so.
btw, when was the last time you visited the Middle East? Never? I've travelled throughout the region, including a lovely trip to the West Bank before the intifadah. I've also spoken with Bedouin in the Negev. And Druze in the north. Think you know 'Palestinians'? They're not a homogeneous people, which has been the biggst obstacle to nationhood, or have you missed recent news.
Morey 07-10-2007 9.39pm
And just for the record, Hizbollah do butt kicking, oh unwise one.
Hezbollah kicked ass? Israel may not have destroyed the group, and it was a mistake to claim that was the goal of the war, but Hezbollah cartainly gained nothing from the war. If anything, they’ve helped Israel prepare for the next war. And in the opinion of this Iranian commentator, they actually lost big time:
Morey 07-10-2007 9.41pm
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178096596427&pagen
Morey 07-10-2007 10.03pm
oh, your major criticisms of were refuted several years ago: from:
The Truth About Jonathan Pollard
by John Loftus, (Moment Magazine, June 2003)
But it was all untrue. Every bit of it. Pollard wasn’t the serial killer. The Jew didn’t do it. It was one of their own WASPs—Aldrich Ames, a drunken senior CIA official who sold the names of America’s agents to the Russians for cash. Pollard was framed for Ames’s crime, while Ames kept on drinking and spying for the Soviets for several more years. In fact, Israeli intelligence later suspected that Ames played a direct role in framing Pollard. But no one in America then knew the truth.
Ames was arrested in February 1994, and confessed to selling out American agents in the Soviet Union, but not all of them. It was only logical to assume that Pollard had betrayed the rest of them, as one former CIA official admitted shortly after Ames’s arrest. Even one life lost was too many. So Pollard continued to rot in jail. No one dreamed that yet another high-level Washington insider had sold us out to Soviet intelligence. Years passed, and eventually a Russian defector told the truth. A senior FBI official—Special Agent Robert Hanssen—had betrayed the rest of our agents. Hanssen was arrested in February 2001, and soon confessed in order to avoid the death penalty. He was sentenced to life in prison without parole.
http://www.john-loftus.com/pollard_article.asp
Speaking of dual loyalties, do you know how the fruticake was arrested? He attempted to get other Jews he was working with to help him. Every single one of them turned him in.
by the way, I don't play the victim card. I use the accusation card. I'm not a victim of your anti-Semitism. But, I don't like people who persist in one-sided arguments at the expense of thoughtful, helpful debate.
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Ratilfar 07-10-2007 10.05pm
Loose...hardly. What both sides where looking for was a political victory and in that sense Israel lost. By expanding the war to Beirut, and by showing how weak the Lebanese army was, it made Hezbollah a legitimate national organization, one that is right now vying for power in Lebanon with a good chance at success. And while the losses may appear to be staggering (and remember these things are very hard to measure, just look at the reporting from Iraq, Afghanistan and even Vietnam), its Hezbollah elite light infantry, without the cost or attending weight of a modern mechanized army. So they have the ability to absorb that kind of damage (in the short term) and bounce back in the mid to long term.
That means Hezbollah 1/IDF 0.
Righthand 07-10-2007 10.30pm
I've already said...
And which Morey is it that I'm addressing now. The one that now addresses me "old man" as in ...
Righthand 07-10-2007 11.37pm
Am I serious? I don't know. I would not have trusted the Brits not to offer 2 or 3 of our precious 32 Irish counties for a West Israel state! As it was they held on to 6. Remember we Irish never left Ireland and would not have waited 2,000 years to return to claim ownership.
What percentage of the world's Jews reside in Israel? If it was as you portray then Israel would be over flowing. You would not need to scour Africa seeking out invitee today, citizen tomorrow 'Jews' after having exhausted the USSR. What's keeping them from their 'natural homeland''?
In the past I had no problem with the legitimacy of the state of Israel. I read many Leon Uris books and gloried in the gore of innocent Palestinian lives. A totally one sided biased corruption of the reality as I've discovered since thanks to Bush and the internet!
You have been honest about some of the ills of the 'democratic' Israel, so what would you trade for peace with the Arabs? The borders of 1948, 1967, when, any, while retaining your nuclear arsenal to ensure against an Arab first strike attack that Israel is know for.
The Christians also thought they had so divine right to the Holy Land. It took them quite a while to cop on to their error. How long for a hostile Israel?
You will need more than 2 sources to persuade me that AIPAC has less influence than the Saudi lobby.
RecordSage 07-11-2007 8.20am
well righthand, you keep making ridiculous comments like hezbollah did this and Israeli's didn't - clearly showing complete lack of... just about everything. You think those morons that hide behind women's skirts and hide their weapons in hospitals amount to something? Quit watching their promo movies, your gray matter (you have some somewhere, don't you?) will thank you.
and then your cute comments about 'dense zionists'... just shows how dense you are. try to enroll into Jerusalem U... although I'm afraid even the wisdom of the Internet won't help you to qualify. Calling Jews dense is like changing your nick to 'brainless'... can be done, but not entirely accurate (or so I presume).
Morey 07-11-2007 6.53pm
Y'know, it's an interesting phenomenon. Traditionally, the army has attracted a lot of young people who were looking for direction. But, Jews pursue post-secondary education well above the average rate, rather than jumping into the workforce (or armed forces). Anyway, you're numbers are waaaaay off, and I'd like to see some links (for everything!) . According to the Jewish War Veterans Association of the US, there are approximately 1,500 Jews presently serving in Iraq. There are around 150,000 Americans presently serving, which means 1% of the troops are Jewish. Jews represent around 2% of the American population, so you're 1/10 theory is wrong. But, as I wrote before, this is difficult to guage because it's based on 'declared religion' and many secular Jews (and those concerned about anti-Semitism in the forces) do not declare their religion, which is their choice. It's a little like trying to determine sexual assault cases. Rape figures seem to be climbing. Are they really, or are more women coming forward and reporting the assault?
Morey 07-11-2007 8.54pm
For the record, lower military enrollment is a concern of the Jewish community.
This is an interesting editorial.
Attention: Where are the Jews in the U.S. military?
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/1712
Morey 07-11-2007 6.57pm
You had more right to carve out a part of Europe than to return 2,000 years later to that part of the Middle East.
On what grounds?
Are Jews really Europeans? My family lived for a few hundred years in what is now the Ukraine. Does that make me Ukrainian? Ask yourself this question - and be honest - is an Irish Jew 'Irish'?
Your misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 C.E. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years. Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the Land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.
The Crusaders massacred many Jews during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century — years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement — more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.
Morey 07-11-2007 7.12pm
If these numbers seem low, consider the effects of centuries of persecution under the Turks (which also decimated Palestine's Christian population). Non-Muslims under Islamic rule were known as Dhimmis; Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, 'protected' people were free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but were made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29) and motivate Dhimmis to convert. This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, as a form of institutionalized racism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
http://www.dhimmitude.org/
Morey 07-11-2007 7.15pm
In a letter written nearly 1,000 years after the Roman expulsion, Rabbi Chisdai ibn Shaprut (c. 915 - c. 990) of Andalusia described himself as: "Chisdai, the son of Yitzchak, the son of Ezra, from the descendants of the exiled of Jerusalem who now live in Spain...we have been waiting many years, while we have been transferred from one captivity to another, and from exile to another. How strong is the hope and anticipation - one cannot contain oneself over this! How can I remain silent over the destruction of our glorious Temple and over the remnant of those who have excaped the sword and have been through fire and water? We have been left with only a small remnant of the many, and we have descended from our glory. We live in the diaspora and there is no power in our hands." Documents such as these testify to the enduring desire, but inability of returning in large numbers to the Holy Land.
The revolution in France brought about revolutionary changes in the life of the Jews in other lands. The Jews of the Middle Ages, it must be remembered, were a separate corporate entity, almost completely self-governing; they had their own courts, judges, police and a taxation system. As such they acted as a state within a state. Enlightenment promised new freedoms, but, in the view of many Jews, required loyalty to the community-at-large, and an abandonment of Jewish isolation.
As freedoms grew so too did the opportunity to finally restore the Jewish nation in Palestine. With Sir Moses Montefiore, whose journeys to Palestine began in the 1830's, Western Jewry began to occupy itself constructively with the Jewish restoration. There was established a fund for the cultivation of land in Palestine by the Jews. Sir Moses had the idea of obtaining extensive concessions, and so bringing about 'the return of thousands of our brethren to the lands of Israel.' This was nearly 100 years before the British Mandate.
Morey 07-11-2007 7.33pm
There were other Jewish leaders who called for the return of the Jews to Palestine for decades before Theodor Herzl (1860 1904) wrote his influential pamphlet, 'The Jewish State.' But Herzl's work pushed the formation of a political movement to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
"We are a people - one people."
"We have honestly endeavored everywhere to merge ourselves in the social life of surrounding communities and to preserve the faith of our fathers. We are not permitted to do so. In vain are we loyal patriots, our loyalty in some places running to extremes; in vain do we make the same sacrifices of life and property as our fellowcitizens; in vain do we strive to increase the fame of our native land in science and art, or her wealth by trade and commerce. In countries where we have lived for centuries we are still cried down as strangers, and often by those whose ancestors were not yet domiciled in the land where Jews had already had experience of suffering... If we could only be left in peace.."
Early settlers faced innumerable cultural and economic difficulties. In 1800, the ravages of misadministration and war had reduced the population to about 200,000. By the 1880s, the land had recovered somewhat, but it was still poor and disease ridden. The total population was about 450,000. Jerusalem was a small town of 25,000 inhabitants, slightly more than half Jewish. Is it any wonder, with conditions so dire that settlement was slow? I'm astonished that anyone was able to make this journey. During the Middle Ages, when Jewish comunities in Europe and the Middle East were impoverished, it was practically impossible. Should anyone be surprised that Jews came to believe that only the Messiah could restore them to their homeland?
Morey 07-11-2007 7.41pm
Morey 07-11-2007 7.52pm
...speak to people who were there (I've been lucky enough to interview a British Naval officer who served in the Mediterranean 1947-1948, and a woman who assembled guns for the Irgun while incarcerated in Cyprus...the first-hand accounts are vital); and, seek out documents that illuminate the political machinations behind the scenes. We're now fortunate to be able to read declassified CIA documents: http://www.foia.cia.gov/
State department docs: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xix/28059.htm
and even old books online free. This one is great! http://www.archive.org/details/mymissioninisrae002443mbp
Morey 07-11-2007 8.03pm
By Joseph Puder
FrontPageMagazine.com | April 12, 2007
Morey 07-11-2007 8.05pm
In any event, [former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Robert] Jordan in 2003 joined the long list of U.S. ambassadors and other former American officials working directly or indirectly for the Saudi royal family...Actually, it would be big news if a senior U.S. diplomat in the Middle East did not accept the warm embrace of the Saudis or other despots upon leaving the region. They are sprinkled all over Washington, particularly in such well-known Saudi-supported think tanks as the Middle East Institute. A former American ambassador to Saudi Arabia leads the institute -- Wyche Fowler Jr., chairman.
Edward Walker, president, was ambassador to Israel, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates. Former ambassador to the United Arab Emirates and deputy assistant secretary for the Near East David Mack is the institute's vice president. Also at the institute is Richard Parker, former ambassador to Algeria, Lebanon, and Morocco, and Michael Sterner, former ambassador to the United Arab Emirates and deputy assistant secretary of Near Eastern Affairs.
Chas. Freeman Jr., another former U.S. ambassador to the kingdom, is president of the Saudi-backed Middle East Policy Council. Another ambassador, Walter Cutler, leads the Saudi-backed Meridian International Center. From the Saudi point of view, all this is a good thing. The legendary former Saudi ambassador to Washington Prince Bandar bin Sultan
was quoted in the Washington Post a few years back as saying, "If the reputation then builds that the Saudis take care of friends when they leave office, you'd be surprised how much better friends you have who are just coming into office."
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/02/12/INGHIH
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.1-pm
Saudi PR/Lobby Firms Dodging Congressional Subpoenas
http://www.prwatch.org/node/1604
`Wahhabi Lobby' takes the offensive: radical Islamists take a page from the KGB's playbook and try to shape U.S. policy by politically manipulating policymakers with a well-funded influence campaign.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_28_18/ai_90307295/pg_1
US and oil lobby oust climate change scientist
http://www.guardian.co.uk/bush/story/0,7369,687650,00.html
"At the outset, the Arab states had little need for their own instrument because they were championed by the American petro-diplomatic complex— the conglomerate of oilmen, diplomats, missionaries, and CIA agents. They were an impressive galaxy: James Forrestal, the Secretary of Defense; Harold B. Minor, chief of the Office of Near Eastern Affairs in 1946 and 1947 and subsequently an employee of ARAMCO; William A. Eddy, the U.S. minister to Saudi Arabia between 1944 and 1946; Wallace Murray, chief of the Office of Near Eastern Affairs for many years; Rusk; Byroade; Henderson; and many, many more...
...Encouraged by American diplomats, pro-Arab Americans organized the Committee for Justice and Peace in the Holy Land to spur the 1948 campaign to rescind the partition resolution, warning of a resurgence of anti-Semitism if Jews insisted on implementation. Claiming credit for the reversal, they then disbanded. When [Kenen] began to lobby in 1951, King Ibn Saud called on U.S. diplomats to finance a pro-Arab organization to counter ours. That appeal resulted in a secret CIA subvention via a paper conduit, the "Dearborn Foundation" in Chicago, in order to establish and fund the American Friends of the Middle East (AFME), whose chairman, columnist Dorothy Thompson, advertised the event on June 27, 1951....One c
As of last year, Israel has actually relinquished control of 91% of land seized in 1967. Shouldn't that warrant some consideration? No, it's not 100%.
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.31pm
So, you ask, what can be offered? Before we reach that point, both sides must consider historical and religious imperatives. My view is that the Arab world, especially the Palestinians, must grow up and be realistic. They have very legitimate grievances but continue to squander every opportunity by demanding the impossible, and refusing to accept a single compromise. I believe in a negotiated peace, but this is only possible when both sides are willing to make concessions. Jewish moderates recognize the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as a struggle between two legitimate national narratives.
Yet, it's clear after so many years of conflict, the Arab world has made virtually no effort to understand the Jewish narrative. Instead, the Arabs have developed what can be called a "culture of denial," that denies the most basic truths of the Jewish story. According to this culture of denial, which is widespread throughout the Arab world, there was no Temple in Jerusalem, no ancient Jewish presence in the land, no Holocaust. This inability to understand who we are has been a disaster not only for Jews but also for Arabs, because it has repeatedly led them to underestimate Jewish vitality and ability to persevere.
Morey 07-11-2007 8.35pm
And the Jewish world, within and without Israel, must go further in understanding the Arab worlds societal, ethnocultural and religious needs. Israel has concentrated on negotiating over borders and land claims but has failed to appreciate the consequences of Arab humiliation, and Islamic ignominy, from repeated drubbings at the hands of Jews (a perceived inferior).
Satisfying Arab (and Muslim) justice would, in my opinion, go a lot further to alleviate a prevelant sense of discomfiture than nitpicking over numbers of refugees and the difference between an "Armistice line" and a "border." Personally, I would like to see the Israeli government come clean on massacres at the hand of both the Haganah and the Irgun. (I don't believe as many happened as are sometimes reported, and both sides committed terrible atrocities but that's irrelevant. We know some Arab civilians died at the hands of Jewish soldiers). I would like to see an acknowledgement of killings; compensation to survivors and relatives; and a right of return to survivors of villages that were unnecessarily brutalized. We're not talking about that many people, and it would give the Arab world at least some sense of closure regarding these deaths. It would also be therapeutic to the Jewish world to be able to admit guilt, and ask for foregiveness. The act of Teshuvah is a basic Jewish imperative. http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Teshuvah_-_Fixing_Mistakes.asp
These sorts of acts would go much further to create the right atmosphere for negotiations. I must also add that if the Palestinians were to throw down their weapons, and completely renounce violence, there would be hundreds of thousands of Israelis on the streets demanding their government sit down and negotiate in good faith. Until these things happen, negotiations are useless. Until there is trust, peace cannot be forced. That's why every effort by the UN has failed; imposed ceasefires do not bring about peace; they simply prolong the ...
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.40pm
they simply prolong the conflict. The struggle between Jews and Arabs is over intangibles and mutual perceptions, not over a precise point on the map. It will not end until we face and defeat our personal demons, accept that compromise is an act of faith and not a sign of weakness, and admit once and for all, the children of Abraham are family, fellow indigenous sons of the same land, which belongs to neither of us but to G-d.
Since you asked.
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.57pm
This is the end of the quote that begins: "At the outset, the Arab states had little need for their own instrument because they were championed by the American petro-diplomatic complex.......One could rationalize the project—within limits. The CIA might have established AFME student counseling offices in Arab capitals as covers for intelligence operations. However, in Washington, AFME was using CIA funds to wage propaganda offensive against Israel, and we were resentful. While we were struggling to raise a modest $50,000 to $100,000 a year to finance our lobby, U.S. subsidies to AFME reached a peak of $400,000 a year. (Israel's Defense Line by SI Kenen, pg. 115)
Righthand 07-15-2007 2.27pm
Waiting for the smell of the verbal diarrhoea to fade.
Morey -7-16-2007 1.32am
Great response.
And it proves my point: you're either disinterested in, or incapable of, serious discussion. Complex problems don't have simple answers, even if you think it can all be boiled down to "Israel BAD." What's more disappointing is that you, being Irish, should understand better than most, that conflicts that may appear clear and straightforward are usually convoluted and even enigmatic. Were the 'troubles' simply a religious competition? Did family rivalry play a role? Were there political considerations? All of the above? None of the above?
My issue with you, my friend - you're only three years older than me so I suppose technically I can't call you 'old man' - from the beginning is that you're not interested in adding anything positive to the debate, just making accusations (generally misinformed) and spreading canards. I suppose I just don't understand that kind of negative hate-mongering.
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Zasel 7-2-2007 6.05pm
Righthand, the photos are ghastly, and I am glad you are reminding so many of us what this tragic situation is all about on the bottom line.
I am a Jew, and I support the existence of Israel living in peace with its neighbours. But I am totally against this illegal occupation, and the heinous and inhumane manner the Israeli government is treating the Palestinians. They act as if each and every Palestinian is a terrorist, when the fact is that most of them are just trying to live their lives and support their families. This grave injustice must come to and end, yet when I say these things to many of my Jewish friends I am called an anti-Semite.
I publish an online magazine of Jewish culture, lifestyle and politics, all of which I do as a labour of love. Do I sound like much on an anti-Semite to you?
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Arifsali 07-02-2007 7.21pm
zasel, can you share the link of your online magazine?
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RecordSage 07-02-2007 9.38pm
zasel, you should take a trip to Israel and see for yourself instead of reading BS generated by pro-palestinian press. I think you'd find things quite a bit different.
There have been palestinians on record asking Israelis to come back and restore some normalcy to Gaza. Do you have an explanation for that one?
There's a good reason why Israeli's are most cautious when it comes to palestinians... remember it was them that invented the modern version of terrorism. If you take your guard down with the terrorists - you die. As simple as that.
Have you seen many Jews jumping borders and blowing themselves up in mosques? Have you seen ANY? Have you seen a little palestinian girl, a 3-yr old, who said she dislikes Jews and worse? You expect Israel to hug people who create monsters from day 1 and deliberately so?
I'm not advocating you defending Israel & the Jews because you're a Jew... but I think it's very inappropriate to beat the drum as this article does... check it out for real, talking to some Israelis and then see which side you want to join and then you can really see if you're behind-the-scenes anti-semite or just somewhat uninformed.
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Righthand 07-02-2007 10.15pm
No, you are not anti-Semite. Like me and many other Jews, you are anti-Zionist. This deliberate misnomer is a very important part of how good Jews get a bad name.
I know that the problem is that Zionism has been high jacked by the right wing fascist parties. The fascism is manifested in the extraordinary one party line of Stalinism at its worst. Of course many of today's leaders are former Communists, so they know the drill well having been office holders in the old USSR.
Other than the latest arrivals from where ever, who will only prosper is they replace the 'native' Palestinians in the 'food chair' of Israeli society, this zealot style Zionism is not representative of the ordinary Israelite. Not that most Americans understand this. Because the party Stalinist line is so consistent and powerful, most Americans believe what they promulgate.
As usual in such cases, the middle ground loses out, leaving weak righteous Jews pitted against the all powerful Stalinists.
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Axelsenzon 07-03-2007 1.33am
Zasel, i do NOT want you to think of this as purely my ideology and compared to recordsage, this will not make sense but: to criticize you for maybe something you've expected but possibly not experienced, how could you possibly write anything on jewish life, you being openly homosexual? the two don't exactly go together. and you clearly do not speak for the majority of the small section of the world that calls themselves jewish, so why would you try and call yourself a voice for their "culture, lifestyle and politics"? what you should probably do is go visit israel and learn a little bit about their culture first hand. you know, i used to hear the word 'zionist' when i was younger and it had one definition, only lately has it become something of criticism... something to be hated and discriminated against. i hear that word now and it reminds me of what it used to mean not long ago.
Israeli hospitals will treat Islamics (note: you really aren't using the word palestine correctly) whether or not they are supposed to be in the state. And i understand that being from a liberal/open-minded town, you get to pick and chose what you're open-minded about, but try, maybe, to see things for what they are and not whats popular.
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Arifsali 07-03-2007 4.59am
how could you possibly write anything on jewish life, you being openly homosexual? --axelsenzon
Holy Cow! Allow me to share my astonishment. What does being homosexual have to do with Jewish life or identity? Or any identity for that matter? I'm lost.
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Inagatt 07-03-2007 12.34pm
and could any one please answer arifsali's question i am lost too
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Morey 07-03-2007 7.24pm
I know that the problem is that Zionism has been high jacked by the right wing fascist parties. The fascism is manifested in the extraordinary one party line of Stalinism at its worst. Of course many of today's leaders are former Communists, so they know the drill well having been office holders in the old USSR.
Do you actually believe this, my friend? Which of Israel's leaders is a former communist? Ehud Olmert was born in Palestine in 1945. Tzipi Livni, the Foreign Affairs minister, was born in Tel Aviv. Ehud Barak, MInister of Defence and former PM was born in Palestine in 1942. Shimon Peres, President and former PM, was born in Poland in 1923 and moved to Palestine when he was 11. At least one former minister, Natan Sharansky, was a Soviet dissident. And 12 ministers are Arab-Israelis!
Just curious, but do you make this stuff up yourself or is it from a Palestinian propaganda website?
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Axelsenzon 07-03-2007 10-03pm
Arifsali, firstly don't paraphrase what I wrote because I started that saying its not my ideology. The truth is, I couldn't care less about how people live their lives, personally. But, I a) do not think anyone should try and speak for a group of people unless he was appointed to do so, and even then it's not always simple. And b) it is against the Abrahamic faiths to be gay. Did you not know that? So, it is hard to call yourself a good Christian/Muslim (if they dont kill you)/Jew and break one of their fundamental principles let alone say you speak for these people.
Thats all my criticism was, I'm not trying to be hate filled myself- I have no reason to be. But, he talking a lot of sh*t that is bs. Example; "they just want to live their lives" oh, ok, thats why they democratically elect hamas its major political party. A group that is well known for their suicide bombings for the past 20 years and their hatred toward people and other religions, yeah they just want to live- give me a break, shit like that is said because people dont expect you to say anything otherwise, but the facts are against you.
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Axelsenzon 07-03-2007 10.06 pm
Now,
to go on a drop more. While I cannot say the same is true for cristianity or islam, one should actually not have a problem being homosexual in Judaism, if you learn and understand the talmud and gemara (kabala- books on spiritualty, gemara- books of law/litigation). Why that is, is not so simple. But I can explain if you want.
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Righthand 07-05-2007 10.36pm
For Morey for now, while I collect together my info..
Israeli Agent in United States Helped Moscow or
Israeli Agent in United States Helped Moscow
Israel's Declaration of Independence Written by Moscow's Agent
Making use of Russia's natives to provide Kremlin's political interests is not an invention of the present Russian leadership. Six decades ago, the Soviet Union tried to subordinate world’s Jewish Diaspora to its influence. Those willing to help the Russians were placed in senior echelons of the Jewish leadership of Palestine…
According to his evidence, presumably related to the year 1947, a secret conference of the pro-Soviet minded delegates of the World Zionist Congress took place in the Swiss city of Basel. The majority of them, claimed the agent, were members of the Zionist-Socialist party “Poalei Zion” and the youth movement of similar orientation “Hashomer Hatza'ir”. Besides, many delegates of the conference took an active participation in the work of the so-called League for Cooperation with Soviet Russia.
Vanunu and Pollard: Hero vs. Spy
Russian espionage in Israel:
No official response to media reports on Israeli visa refusal to Russian diplomat
Russian diplomat not welcomed to work in Israel, secret service says
Shin Bet man in KGB – Ma’ariv writes about Viktor Grayevsky
Israeli Security Services: Russian Embassy's Secretary is a Spy
[url=http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=770]Israeli PM Worked for the Kremlin's I
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RecordSage 07-05-2007 10.41pm
righthand, you're completely wrong on the soviet-israel connection. The Russians were always friend with the arabs... and will continue to be so. There's no way you could be a friend to both.
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Arifsali 07-06-2007 1.57am
And b) it is against the Abrahamic faiths to be gay. Did you not know that? --axelsenzonDear axelsenzon, your premise is wrong here. The God of Abrahamic faith, the One who is above all else, cannot be against the homosexuals, in fact, this godhead is beyond being against or for anyone. So when you refer to Abrahamic faith, you should probably refer to Abrahamic religion, which is an organized aspect of human understanding of this godhead.
Anyway, I don't intend to be off topic here, I'm sure righthand can answer the points you have raised with him, and I will also let a faithful homosexual counter your above point as well because I obviously cannot do justice.
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Axelsenzon 07-06-2007 4-02am
Arifasli,
I dont understand. Do you read only half of what I say?
Please try and read my posts again as I paint the "Abrahamic faiths" to cristianity/judaism/islamism like you may remember learning in a history or philosophy or socio-economic or religious or other classes; I'm assuming you've studied one of these and are therefore familiar with and understand where the classification comes from- i didn't event this term. Next, there is no Abrahamic religion, the truth is I wouldn't be callous and insulting to reward any/only one of the 3 above mentioned as the only Abrahamic religion. None of them would appreciate it.
Further, i'm am not looking to discredit or insult anyone specifically, in fact, its should remind of how silly prefabricated ideas being force ably put on someone can be.
But, it is illegal in all three of those religions to be a homosexual- i'm not advocating what it says just reminding you. Christianity, i don't know what the punishment is on earth but i know they say you cant go to heaven. Islam, punishable by death. Judaism, either punishable by (up to and including) 49 lashes or death, depending.
I really dont know what your arguing if I've mistaken what you've said.
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Axelsenzon 07-06-2007 4.06am
arifasli, i'm reading you post again and I'm truly not understanding something:
"God of Abrahamic faith, the One who is above all else, cannot be against the homosexuals, in fact, this godhead is beyond being against or for anyone"
have you read the bible/qu'ran/torah? what your saying is just not true. read that thing again and tell me he's not against things. Try specifically, leviticous, numbers, deuteronamy to name a few.
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Righthand 07-06-2007 6.44am
Axelsenzon,
I have some difficultly understanding what you write. It is difficult to reply when it's not clear what the poster intended to write. I'm sure that all fault for this lies with me? However...
Zasel, i do NOT want you to think of this as purely my ideology and compared to recordsage, this will not make sense but: to criticize you for maybe something you've expected but possibly not experienced, how could you possibly write anything on jewish life, you being openly homosexual? the two don't exactly go together.
What you wrote is clear even if your intent may not be reflected in the words.
"Compared to RecordSage" This means what? You agree/disagree with him?
"The two don't exactly go together"
In your opinion, are Jews exclude from being homosexual? Is this notion exclusive only to Jews? As all of life has homosexuality, this would make Jews abnormal, if true!
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Righthand 07-06-2007 9.03am
what you should probably do is go visit israel and learn a little bit about their culture first hand.
This is similar to saying to a child "stick your hand in the fire and see what happens."
You have totally disrespected his homosexuality as a Jew and you advocate that he go to one of the most anti-gay societies to learn "their culture first hand." Unbelievable!
Why would you advocate this? Have you been to Israel? Why? Are you prepared to disclose that you are Jewish. Why should you? Well, you are preaching to a very courageous man who discloses that he is both homosexual and a Jew.
If you were a Jew you should know that for a large number of Jews, the state of Israel is an ABOMINATION, so for sexual and religious reason, I do not believe your advice is wise. Check out "Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews protest" here.
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Axelsenzon 07-06-2007 5.18pm
this is not at all like a child saying stick your hand a fire. for one, i am not a child. two, israel is not a fire in that a) not every one that goes to israel is preverbally 'burned', it is not a guarantee of death or injury like you are having me infer b) we are talking about a culture, do you understand what I am saying. You think you know what it is like there, but it is not as...you may suspect it is. Do you think you know what it is like in Tokyo because you see pictures of it and read about it, do you know what it was like to live in ancient Greece because your text books tell you what it was like. You'd be ignorant. The best you can do, w/o being there, is fathom the actual experience. Again, when it comes to knowledge vs experience, experience goes a lot farther.
Next,
obviously i've been to israel and numerous times, chump. I cannot preach hypocrisy and then carry it out myself.
Further,
you source yourself as an authority on the matter. Do you have anything aside from your own clipmarks to back what your talking about? And to explain more, the small hasidic movement that rallies with the arabs during the israeli day parade in ny (which i've gone to at least 10 times and walked), do so for reasons that you probably would not really get. But the simple reason is not that it is an abomination, the state, but they do not use a beis din nor has the messia come. These are both stupid reasons, and you seem to be, in other clips and above post (...no, not anti-jewish, anti-zionist...{wtf that means}) that you claim fundamentalism is a problem. Can you agree on that?
Now fundamentalism is a problem, unless the more fundamental extremists agree w/ur cause. Visa vi, what is more fundamental than believing a nation cannot govern themselves because the messia has not come yet?
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Axelsenzon 07-06-2007 5.32pm
I dont care enough about how other people live their lives. Please understand this.
But, to your question, saying that a gay jew is brave for being a gay jew is like saying a man is brave for being a black cristian.
Is there a choice in either of those combinations or situations? What you just said is anti-racism. Like I heard the other day a guy talking he said (in front of his black g/f none the less) "the Irish in that neighborhood over there are worse than the blacks"
do you understand why she got offended? Your doing the same thing.
And again, b/c you guys dont seem to take in what I say, I dont have a problem w/him. I have a problem w/"self-appointed' "speakers of the house" and if he's trying to tell people about his jewish politics, religion, culture. I have no problem attacking him like a politician and pointing out continuity flaws. Understand. How about a vegan protester that only eats poultry... Or maybe, a Pro-Life politician whose wife had an abortion... or yoga teacher that smokes on the weekend, only. Take you pick, I don't care personally I dont have enough of a basis to not like him for that. I'm pointing out continuity problems and hypocrisy. If anyone wants to follow any of the 3 abrahamic religions, one cant be homosexual. And therefore, if they are so living that way- dont appoint yourself as a speaker for these religious sects.
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Axelsenzon 07-06-2007 5.43pm
and righthand,
" "The two don't exactly go together"
In your opinion, are Jews exclude from being homosexual? Is this notion exclusive only to Jews? As all of life has homosexuality, this would make Jews abnormal, if true!"
you wrote this right?
are f-ing stupid? seriously, your becoming a waste of time. Please tell me your not either christian, jew, or muslim. because if you were raised as any of these three, you wouldn't say such an insulting statement.
Do not assume my philosophical beliefs to be so simple as you would be able to get it by reading/listening to half or less of what I say.
No, it is not Judaism exclusively, or my own opinion. But rather, a law given into all three of the religions I just mentioned, says (leviticous), "do not lay with a man the way you would with a woman."
I'm sure you've heard that from religious nutbags before to discredit homosexuality, thats where they get it from.
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Righthand -7-06-2007 6.47pm
Axelsenzon, @ 8.44am today I wrote to you...
I have some difficultly understanding what you write. It is difficult to reply when it's not clear what the poster intended to write. I'm sure that all fault for this lies with me?...and...
In your opinion, are Jews exclude from being homosexual? Is this notion exclusive only to Jews? As all of life has homosexuality, this would make Jews abnormal, if true!you said...
What you just said is anti-racismI'm know you are wrong but also I'm sure you meant is racism, if you can understand!
Well, I was being charitable. If english is your first language or you are not a child, as you claim, then Houston, we have a problem. And I have no desire to solve your problem. We do not appear to write the same language! Our minds could never met given your predigests, but our words cannot join either. So unless things improve at your end, I will not be responding further to you. Good luck.
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Sparlingphoto 07-06-2007 7.11pm
This is CLIPMARXISM at it's finest! The whole concept of this clip is just utter p.c. bullshit! I refuse to engage in the blathering that follows!
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Morey 07-06-2007 9-08pmFor Morey for now, while I collect together my info..
Israeli Agent in United States Helped Moscow orIsraeli Agent in United States Helped Moscow
Israel's Declaration of Independence Written by Moscow's Agent
I think the only rational response is 'huh'?
Pollard was a fruitcake that tried to sell secrets to both israel and the Soviets. He represented no one but himself. As for the Soviets, they certainly tried to ingratiate themselves into the Middle East in an attempt to minimize British influence. They even supplied weapons (through the Czechs) to the Israelis in 1948, but quickly realized the Israelis couldn't be bought off, and turned to the Arabs.
“Poalei Zion,” the Labor Zionists, were influential in the early years, establishing the Kibbutz collectives and socialized education and health care. But those old socialists are long dead; and Israel changed radically after Begin reformed the economy based on advice from Milton Friedman (which backfired). The only thing 'Soviet' in Israel are a few bombed out tanks in the Golan.
If you were a Jew you should know that for a large number of Jews, theThe VAST majority of Jews, both religious and secular, support Israel's right to exist (which is very different than criticism of government policy toward the Palestinians). A very small number of ultra-Orthodox Jews believe a modern state is an abomination because the Messiah has not yet come. But, they are such a small fraction as to be irrelevant; it would be like judging Christianity based on the actions of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The ultra-Orthodox Hassidic Jews do not represent normative Judaism, and radical groups like the Neturei Karta have even been removed from many Jewish organizations.
state of Israel is an ABOMINATION, so for sexual and religious reason,
I do not believe your advice is wise. Check out "Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews protest" here.
You really need to learn more before you make simplistic and uninformed generaliz
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Righthand 07-06-2007 9.40pm
yours...
Pollard was a fruitcake that tried to sell secrets to both israel and the Soviets...my response...
Daniel Ayalon, the ambassador of Israel, leaving his post in Washington told about this in an interview to the daily Ma’ariv.
He said that the American authorities till now refuse to give Israelis access to the part of documents of investigation of Pollard’s case concerning the "Russian trace". According to Ayalon, using own sources, he established that in opinion of the Americans, the classified information transferred by Pollard to Israel, had got to Moscow already from there. It follows from Ayalon’s story that this had happened as a result of penetration of the Soviet intelligence, either into the Israeli secret services, or into the higher echelons of power, in particular in the office of the Prime Minister and Minister of Defence...some fruitcake...
...for now...
- # In November 1995 Jonathan Pollard got the Israeli citizenship.
- # In 1998 Israel for the first time officially recognized that Pollard had operated under orders from the Israeli competent persons.
- #All the responsibility for Pollard’s espionage activity and its failure was assigned personally on Eitan who was accused of treachery of his former subordinate. The claimant has also declared that Eitan till now hides a certain document containing the full list of all confidential materials, transferred by Pollard to the Israeli side.
More simplistic and uniformed generalization, anon.
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Righthand 07-06-2007 9.51pm
or there is ...
You do know that your fruitcake Pollard was an important part of the undoing of an Israeli-Palestine deal? No? More anon then.
Righthand 07-06-2007 10.11pm
You did note the 'double loyalty' problem that is not a problem for other American immigrants! This is the Tennet bit where Monica played such an important part with her semen stained dress.
I believe that Tennet's 'intervention' was a putup job with Clinton, because Clinton was being blackmailed! Pollard for the dress. It makes more sense than a young intern keeping an uncleaned semen stained dress for months and telling a much older female of her 'trophy' cause her 'lover's' name to be blackened for ever!
There's a lot lot more if you are yet not convienced that he was no fruitcake, if you ever believed it, or we could have more simplistic and uniformed generalization, anon.
Righthand 07-06-2007 9.51pm
or there is ...
If you had done proper research on my inputs here you would know about my interest and ideas on this topic. This would include my input that Pollard indirectly lead to the indictment of President William Clinton through the swallow, Monica!
- * Pollard’s case caused the sharpest crisis in the American-Israeli relations and also a public discussion in the US concerning the "double loyalty" of the American Jews. Originally Israeli leadership completely kept a distance from Pollard’s espionage activity. The whole responsibility was assigned to representatives of the LEKEM, who allegedly operated under their own initiative, not informing higher instances (the bureau was disbanded in November 1985).
- * The then head of the government Shimon Peres made official apologies to Washington, having expressed readiness to give any materials necessary for the investigation. Two state commissions investigated circumstances of Pollard’s case in Israel. They finished their work in July 1987, having put all the responsibility directly on the country’s leaders, including the Prime Minister.
You do know that your fruitcake Pollard was an important part of the undoing of an Israeli-Palestine deal? No? More anon then.
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Righthand 07-06-2007 10.11pm
You did note the 'double loyalty' problem that is not a problem for other American immigrants! This is the Tennet bit where Monica played such an important part with her semen stained dress.
Starting from 1991, the heads of the governments of Israel, ministers and members of parliament without results have tried to achieve Pollard’s release. The most serious attempt in this connection was undertaken by the Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in 1998, within the framework of the regular round of the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, under aegis of the US.Still holding to the party line of his being a fruitcake?
- * The then US President Bill Clinton promised to pardon Pollard in case of their success.
- * He did not keep the promise because of the sharp protest of the Director of the CIA, George Tennet, supported by 50 senators.
I believe that Tennet's 'intervention' was a putup job with Clinton, because Clinton was being blackmailed! Pollard for the dress. It makes more sense than a young intern keeping an uncleaned semen stained dress for months and telling a much older female of her 'trophy' cause her 'lover's' name to be blackened for ever!
There's a lot lot more if you are yet not convienced that he was no fruitcake, if you ever believed it, or we could have more simplistic and uniformed generalization, anon.
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Morey 07-06-2007 11.01pm
I'm still not understanding your point. I've seen and read enough interviews with Pollard that I still consider him a fruitcake. That he was recruited by someone within Israel is not relevant. They used him because they found someone who could be used. Israel conceded this, and the PM took responsibility, as a responsible leader should. Every country spies on every other country, or tries, including on their friends. If you don't believe that you're a fool. But, don't get me wrong. As an American citizen caught spying on the US he deserves to rot away in prison, but what does any of this have to do with fascist Soviets running Israel as you have claimed?
You did note the 'double loyalty' problem that is not a problem for other American immigrants!So what you're saying is, Pollard=Jew and Monica=Jew, must mean a Jewish conspiracy against the US, right? Thank goodness dual loyalty isn't a problem for other immigrants such as, um, IRISH AMERICANS. You do know the Provisional IRA received significant funding for its paramilitary activities from Irish-American supporters (in 1984, the US Department of State won a court case forcing the Irish-American fundraising organization NORAID to acknowledge the Provisional IRA as its "foreign principal") (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/aia/wilson95.htm)
Oh, but that's just gun-running.
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Axelsenzon -7-06-2007 11.06pm
righthand,
no, its ANTI-racism, to call someone brave for being a gay jew... that is not racist in itself. But if you read through what the hell ur saying, it's not correct in the majority of what homosexuals believe...that they were born that way. Do you get my analogy now, about calling a black man brave for being black. How about, "you can't blame the Irish for being drunks, its been going on for as long as they've been recording history. In fact they're a brave people for trying to function in todays society." Is there something wrong here? I'm sticking up for people born from Ireland.
Its anti-racist, your statement isn't but the basis of your statement is.
And an other thing. Israel is not tolerant of gay people?
What made you fabricate this one? YOU, clearly have not been to Israel (like you so asked me) and YOU clearly get your info from one maybe 2 sources. Because if you didn't, you'd know there are rapidly growing gay and lesbian communities in Israel and they, through their government's consent (not an illegally held rally), they HOLD A GAY PRIDE PARADE in tel aviv every year.
And, its easy to say you wont be responding to me after I say your becoming a waste of time first.
I'm predigest? if thats the pot calling the kennel black I dont know what is. Under why i use clipmarks, did you put "fascist neocon hate spreading" or is it something more subtle?
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Righthand 07-07-2007 12.10
So what you're saying is, Pollard=Jew and Monica=Jew, must mean a Jewish conspiracy against the US, right? Thank goodness dual loyalty isn't a problem for other immigrants such as, um, IRISH AMERICANS.I think this is a case of adding 2 and 2 together and getting 22! Yes, the 'dual loyalty' problem clearly has one common trend as you indicate. That is whether as citizens or American, France, Russia or where ever. Loyalty was transient.
This was certainly not a problem for the Irish, Germans, Asians, Africans or who ever - other than your friends. The Irish were hardly off the boat before they were joining the US forces and dying before they were even citizens.
Contrast that today with numbers serving in Iraq. The Marshall Island are highest and your friends are lowest by a long way. Yet they often have the unique experience of fighting in a foreign army! Ironic, those wanting the Iraq invasion most, did the least fighting!
Back to your 2 and 2. Kenneth Barr, the son of a Holocaust Survivor, said, speaking of Pollard that ...
He used his position at CCF to identify personnel in sensitive duty positions who are of the Jewish faith.
He then contacted 31 of these service members (sometimes more than one contact was attempted) and offered sums of cash to turn over to him the sensitive material of which they had custodial custody. All 31 reported his contacting them. That’s how he was caught. I should know. I was one of those 31.
Mr. Pollard claimed we had a duty to Israel as well as the United States.Now where did we get the notion for this duty? His genes? His friends? His training? Any ideas? His disloyalty then as now, didn't cost him a thought.
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Righthand 07-07-2007 12.25am
Of course the truth is that Pollard himself was not directly responsible for the deaths of all those CIA agents behind the Iron Curtain that he is blamed for. No, they were sold out by the Israeli authorities! But then you knew that, right? And you know why too.
No wonder Pollard is hopping mad. He's blamed for something he didn't do. He forgets that without his initial treacherous action then Israel could not have sold out the CIA agents. This should reinforce his faith in a god of retribution!
Kenneth Barr, the son of a Holocaust Survivor, also said...
However, as a Jew, Levite and son of a Holocaust Survivor, let me say that if there is a political prisoner held anywhere in the world, Mordechai Vanunu is that person. His crime, telling the truth. His sentence, repeated imprisonments, an inability to travel when "free" and other indignities you or I would never tolerate. Vanunu has been profiled on 60 Minutes and other topical programs throughout the world. Considering that nuclear proliferation is a worldwide concern, where is the outrage over his treatment?I'm sure you are not interested in a genuine miscarriage of justice, but just in case, now you know. Ok?
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Morey 07-09-2007 12.34am
Perhaps it's the way you jump around, but I'm still not totally getting you. So you're NOT accusing Jews of dual loyalties, you're just accusing Israel of having sold out the US by providing secrets to the Soviets. Is that it? I suppose it's possible even if it makes little sense, and ignores the dozens of other cases of Americans selling secrets to the Soviets, especially those cases of dual allegiance, like ethnic Chinese providing secrets to China (which I'm sure you don't believe happened, since only Jews have this problem.)
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Morey 07-09-2007 12.35am
Ok, whatever. As for the rest, lost of factual errors (eg. Jewish Americans have tended to serve in the US forces at a higher than average per capita level until recently...in fact, 50% of the first graduating class of Westpoint was Jewish...but it is true, numbers seem have dropped of late. There are many reasons for this, having more to do with education and where American Jews live - East Coast, which is very under-represented in the US Forces; also, Jewish Americans were, according to every poll I've seen, AGAINST the war in Iraq, which shouldn't be a surprise considering most American Jews support the Democrats. In fact, there's lots of evidence Israel didn't want the US to attack Iraq either. Israel, and this should be fairly obvious to anyone whose been following the news recently, preferred US pressure in IRAN.)
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Morey 07-09-2007 12.35am
Anyway, I'm still not convinced you're anything more than an old-fashioned anti-Semite with access to the internet. Oh, I'm sure you don't HATE Jews; you just prefer them weak and powerless, like in the good, old days. We can't have Jews running around with guns and defending their rights or anything. oh, did I call you uninformed before? I take that back. I meant BADLY informed. You've hit many half-truths and created a conspiratorial web of mythic proportions. Well done. The rest of us will stick with whole facts, even if the conjectures are fun. Expand your horizons. As I've said, one or two articles on one or two websites doesn't make you 'informed' anymore than reading Readers Digest makes someone well-read.
Rant on, old man.
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Righthand 07-10-2007 4.11am
I have a lot more to contribute than to spend my time replying to your lengthy posts. The Pollard part started with your very loose...
Pollard was a fruitcake that tried to sell secrets to both israel and the Soviets. He represented no one but himself....which took some time for me to establish was inaccurate, put mildly. Unlike another's posts, with yours there is intellect even if bias. You expand the subject with 'loose' statements like....
50% of the first graduating class of Westpoint was Jewish...in what year or decade? You then write a paragraph with no facts. You accuse me of "lots of factual errors"without saying what factual errors and offering no evidence.
Facts like Jewish Americans in Iraq are 1/10 of the number their proportion of the population represent. This is the lowest BY FAR of any group of Americans.
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Righthand 07-10-2007 5.16am
So, would you please try and be factual and concise. You might try to be less personal. Nothing you say that is truthful will effect me but other may not understand. If you wish to examine my personal motive, then just ask me. It would me more productive than you guessing my thoughts. I would expect that you would do the same!
You might be correct that the ordinary American Jew didn't want the Iraq invasion. Unfortunately, their voice does not count! The voice only of the Israeli Lobby matters in America. The 'Party line' then and now about war with Iran is absolutely clear. The ass-kicking by Hizbollah has been forgotten already or the raw memory needs eliminating.
Of course I understand the difference between the Zionists in Israel and the mostly good Jews in America. If they were mainly Zionist then Israel wouldn't be big enough. It is the Zionists in America that is the problem, appearing to represent all Jews.
It is always easy to know when a Zionist has lost an argument. They revert to victimhood and abuse the Semite word. Can you not understand that you can no longer claim the victim tag.
The victims now are the Palestinians.
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Righthand 07-10-2007 5.22am
And I do want to save you from yourselves.
This of course you will not get, but try. Think of when this camp guards were herding those unfortunate concentration camp persons to there daily choirs. And they went home each night to their families trying to put away their thoughts of what they were doing to fellow humans. Remembering the torture and broken bodies with the 11,000 detainees now in your formal concentration camps never mind the millions in the occupied territories. You are producing generations of inhuman young men and women.
Remember the returning Vietnam vets. Think of how broken they were in their minds. If you have any humanity remaining they these few words should touch a chord, but I won't hold my breath. Let me know and I'll expand on the help that you might need.
You say "the rest of us" What rest of us? You are representing WHO? You are sounding delusional!
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RecordSage 07-10-2007 5.08
@righthand,
Based on your descriptions of 'concentration camps' - clearly you don't have your definitions straight, or you're losing your command of the language there or worse.
As for representation, you certainly aren't representing anyone anymore than morey does. Nobody's trying to play the 'victimhood' card - the Israeli's can kick any arab country's butt, if they choose to. They have the weapons, the brainpower and the know-how/experience, which none of their enemies can match. The only problem they have, hopefully a temporary one, is one of leadership, unwilling (not unable, but unwilling) to fight wars the way they used to be fought. Not unlike our own problem here.
The problems are certainly due to your kind of thinking, so at least in this area you can pat yourself on the back for some progress from your side. But, as it happened before, there's a limit to how much people will tolerate and their leaders will be based on that tolerance.
The Jews have been abused (to put it mildly) for centuries, and still managed to survive and actually do quite well... certainly based on percent of overall population, probably better than any other group, abused or not. And I'm sure they'll do fine, despite the idiocy surrounding them, rhetoric from their neighbors, people like you etc.
But, you know, if it keeps you going - keep it up...
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RecordSage 07-10-2007 5.36pm
And since you're so into photos... look at these and try not to be so blatantly ignorant.
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Righthand 07-10-2007 6.39pm
and again I say...And I do want to save you from yourselves.
If you did not get it the first time then I'll spell it out in a more graphic example that might help with the more dense Zionists, who advocate the continued mistreatment and torture of the Palestinians with 11,000 detainees at the moment.
CHILD SEX OFFENDERS.
It is well known that many child sex offender were themselves victims of child sex offenders. Should I need to say more? Well for those few that believe that the way to go is ...
the Israeli's can kick any arab country's butt, if they choose to. They have the weapons......there are probably no words that can perpetrate that density and yes there is some truth in ...
The Jews have been abused (to put it mildly) for centuries,...but does this mean that the Zionists become the new abusers?
Why should the Palestinians become the new abused?
And just for the record, Hizbollah do butt kicking, oh unwise one.
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Morey 07-10-2007 9.24pm
.in what year or decade? You then write a paragraph with no facts. You accuse me of "lots of factual errors” without saying what factual errors and offering no evidence.True, but I have a life. And I thought you might look this one up, since you do have Internet access. There were two graduates in 1802; one was Jewish. Read about it here: http://www.jwv.org/communication/detailart.cfm?ID=306
As for low numbers, it's a recent phenomenon that, as I wrote before, has much to do with low interest in military careers from East Coast Americans (and most American Jews live in the East Coast.) In other words, it's not a religious issue. There is also anecdotal evidence that
many Jewish servicemen are not declaring religion to avoid anti-Semitism in the forces. But, in the words of Jewish War Veterans Association: "Jews must still defend themselves against the canards of anti-Semites who continue to declare that Jews have not served in the U.S. Armed Forces. Thousands of Jews have died in combat for their country and thousands more have been wounded. Thousands of Jews have been awarded combat medals for performing their duty in time of war. Despite this record, the bigots continue to spread their lies. A study of Jewish participation in the military during World War II clearly indicates Jews served in the Armed Forces beyond their numerical proportion to the general population. They received more than 52,000 awards, including the coveted Congressional Medal of Honor. Jews participated in the Korean War, in Vietnam, and most recently in the Persian Gulf War."
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Morey 07-10-2007 9.31pm
As for your Lobby paranoia, AIPAC has had little influence on US foreign policy compared to Saudi Arabia and the Oil Lobby.
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/04/jrm-pubnote-20070417
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0119-05.htm
And it is noteworthy that in the authorization of the use of force for the 1991 Gulf War, the majority of Jewish members of Congress voted against the war resolution, which is more than can be said for its non-Jewish members. In the more lopsided vote authorizing the use of force in October 2002, a majority of Jewish members of Congress did vote in the affirmative, though proportionately less so than did non-Jewish members
It is always easy to know when a Zionist has lost an argument. They revert to victimhood and abuse the Semite word. Can you not understand that you can no longer claim the victim tag.You speak of Jewish conspiracies and deny you're an anti-Semite? Please. Oh, I know, you’re only talking about ZIONISTS, not Jews. But, this is a disingenuous argument. The majority of Jews support the State of Israel. But this is a separate argument from the treatment of the Palestinians by successive Israeli governments. The right of the Jewish people to self-determination was as least as legitimate as that of the Arab residents of the region; that was the Zionist agenda. If you disagree with that right, I must question your attitude toward Jews, not Zionists. If you want to say that the Arabs within Israel have been treated as second class citizens, you won't get any argument from me. I'd even agree that Israel's policies in the West Bank and Gaza have acerbated the conflict, but I repeat, that is a separate argument from the right of a people to determine its own destiny. And the Jewish people had that right. And as most Jews support the right of Israel to exist as a Jewi
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Morey 07-10-2007 9.33pm
And as most Jews support the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, Zionism is an important aspect of normative Jewish affairs, even if a minority is anti-Zionist. Dissent within Judaism is not only acceptable; it’s encouraged. Jews don’t silence internal criticism like other groups.
Please don't even try to talk to me about Holocaust victims. Did you lose family in the Holocaust? I'm betting the answer is no.
Or Vietnam vets. I'm related to several. Are you?
and again I say...And I do want to save you from yourselvesOh, please spare us. The whole point of self-determination is to never have to hear that sort of condescending, paternalistic rubbish ever again. Please find another hobby. How about Darfur?
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Morey 07-10-2007 9.37pm
If you're suggesting that Israel is breeding a new generation of terrorists by incarcerating Palestinians, you may be right. It's a terrible catch-22. it doesn't change the fact that most of those in Israeli Jails have blood on their hands. If some don't, and have been detained in defiance of the judicial process, that's a serious problem. But, it's a problem that gets swept under the rug because of Palestinian violence. Things changed substantially after the second intifada. After the first one, too. True, there was still a benign occupation, even if it often benefited the Arabs (with jobs and essential services) but they had a right to demand independence (and some form of return or compensation for lost property.) Did that right also condone bus bombings of civilians? I don't think so.
btw, when was the last time you visited the Middle East? Never? I've travelled throughout the region, including a lovely trip to the West Bank before the intifadah. I've also spoken with Bedouin in the Negev. And Druze in the north. Think you know 'Palestinians'? They're not a homogeneous people, which has been the biggst obstacle to nationhood, or have you missed recent news.
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Morey 07-10-2007 9.39pm
And just for the record, Hizbollah do butt kicking, oh unwise one.
Hezbollah kicked ass? Israel may not have destroyed the group, and it was a mistake to claim that was the goal of the war, but Hezbollah cartainly gained nothing from the war. If anything, they’ve helped Israel prepare for the next war. And in the opinion of this Iranian commentator, they actually lost big time:
- "[Hezbollah] has been destroyed. You know, Hizbullah was a major player in the Lebanese and Israel-Lebanon configurations in a certain context. That context has changed. As long as it controlled southern Lebanon, it could exert "proximity pressure" on Israel. That situation has changed; that status quo no longer exists. Now, whether Hizbullah is stronger or better armed today is a different question - one of speculation. Even if it has better arms, it doesn't have an area from which to launch new attacks without doing so from southern Beirut. But if it does that, the rest of the Lebanese population will say, "What is this business? You want to provoke us into a war from the middle of our city!"
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Morey 07-10-2007 9.41pm
- "That Hizbullah tried to camouflage its defeat by provoking a political crisis in Lebanon is also an indication of its understanding that the situation has changed and of its trying to find a new place in this new situation. It may become stronger in the future - I don't know; I'm not a prophet. But look, the Israelis killed 637 Hizbullah warriors out of a full-time fighting force of about 2,000. Usually in war, you talk of "decimation" - an army's losing one-tenth of its manpower. In this case, Hizbullah lost about a quarter of its fighters. It also lost literally all of its missile launching pads in the south, many missiles and arsenals. In other words, it lost manpower, territory and weaponry. What else do you want?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178096596427&pagen
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Morey 07-10-2007 10.03pm
oh, your major criticisms of were refuted several years ago: from:
The Truth About Jonathan Pollard
by John Loftus, (Moment Magazine, June 2003)
But it was all untrue. Every bit of it. Pollard wasn’t the serial killer. The Jew didn’t do it. It was one of their own WASPs—Aldrich Ames, a drunken senior CIA official who sold the names of America’s agents to the Russians for cash. Pollard was framed for Ames’s crime, while Ames kept on drinking and spying for the Soviets for several more years. In fact, Israeli intelligence later suspected that Ames played a direct role in framing Pollard. But no one in America then knew the truth.
Ames was arrested in February 1994, and confessed to selling out American agents in the Soviet Union, but not all of them. It was only logical to assume that Pollard had betrayed the rest of them, as one former CIA official admitted shortly after Ames’s arrest. Even one life lost was too many. So Pollard continued to rot in jail. No one dreamed that yet another high-level Washington insider had sold us out to Soviet intelligence. Years passed, and eventually a Russian defector told the truth. A senior FBI official—Special Agent Robert Hanssen—had betrayed the rest of our agents. Hanssen was arrested in February 2001, and soon confessed in order to avoid the death penalty. He was sentenced to life in prison without parole.
http://www.john-loftus.com/pollard_article.asp
Speaking of dual loyalties, do you know how the fruticake was arrested? He attempted to get other Jews he was working with to help him. Every single one of them turned him in.
by the way, I don't play the victim card. I use the accusation card. I'm not a victim of your anti-Semitism. But, I don't like people who persist in one-sided arguments at the expense of thoughtful, helpful debate.
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Ratilfar 07-10-2007 10.05pm
Loose...hardly. What both sides where looking for was a political victory and in that sense Israel lost. By expanding the war to Beirut, and by showing how weak the Lebanese army was, it made Hezbollah a legitimate national organization, one that is right now vying for power in Lebanon with a good chance at success. And while the losses may appear to be staggering (and remember these things are very hard to measure, just look at the reporting from Iraq, Afghanistan and even Vietnam), its Hezbollah elite light infantry, without the cost or attending weight of a modern mechanized army. So they have the ability to absorb that kind of damage (in the short term) and bounce back in the mid to long term.
That means Hezbollah 1/IDF 0.
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Righthand 07-10-2007 10.30pm
I've already said...
"I have a lot more to contribute than to spend my time replying to your lengthy posts."and
"So, would you please try and be factual and concise. You might try to be less personal."and I wrote...
..in what year or decade? You then write a paragraph with no facts. You accuse me of "lots of factual errors"without saying what factual errors and offering no evidence.It turns out the year was 1802 when one graduate was Jewish.
...but it is true, numbers seem have dropped of late....this in no way conveys the truth, even remotely. If you intent continuing to use linguistic gymnastics like this, then I have no intention continuing our discourse.
And which Morey is it that I'm addressing now. The one that now addresses me "old man" as in ...
Rant on, old man.... or the Morey in our USS Liberty post that attempted to speak down to me as if I was some wet behind the ear kid, not knowing what I was talking about. I heard about this relay system that you use, but it's usually better hidden. As I've already stated...
You say "the rest of us" What rest of us? You are representing WHO? You are sounding delusional!...or maybe multi personality complex, but certain not ONE. As I said...
Facts like Jewish Americans in Iraq are 1/10 of the number their proportion of the population represent. This is the lowest BY FAR of any group of Americans.A very long short of being representatives of the Jewish American population. And I never thought that it was for religious reason that they avoided service. After all Zionists had no problem killing women and children from the air above Lebanon last year. Now when Hizbollah were firing back...
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Righthand 07-10-2007 11.37pm
The right of the Jewish people to self-determination was as least as legitimate as that of the Arab residents of the region;You had more right to carve out a part of Europe than to return 2,000 years later to that part of the Middle East. When the UK was being so generous with other's land to get the bankers off its back after selling its soul in WW1, why did it not offer part of England? Or America give part of the US?
Am I serious? I don't know. I would not have trusted the Brits not to offer 2 or 3 of our precious 32 Irish counties for a West Israel state! As it was they held on to 6. Remember we Irish never left Ireland and would not have waited 2,000 years to return to claim ownership.
What percentage of the world's Jews reside in Israel? If it was as you portray then Israel would be over flowing. You would not need to scour Africa seeking out invitee today, citizen tomorrow 'Jews' after having exhausted the USSR. What's keeping them from their 'natural homeland''?
In the past I had no problem with the legitimacy of the state of Israel. I read many Leon Uris books and gloried in the gore of innocent Palestinian lives. A totally one sided biased corruption of the reality as I've discovered since thanks to Bush and the internet!
You have been honest about some of the ills of the 'democratic' Israel, so what would you trade for peace with the Arabs? The borders of 1948, 1967, when, any, while retaining your nuclear arsenal to ensure against an Arab first strike attack that Israel is know for.
The Christians also thought they had so divine right to the Holy Land. It took them quite a while to cop on to their error. How long for a hostile Israel?
You will need more than 2 sources to persuade me that AIPAC has less influence than the Saudi lobby.
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RecordSage 07-11-2007 8.20am
well righthand, you keep making ridiculous comments like hezbollah did this and Israeli's didn't - clearly showing complete lack of... just about everything. You think those morons that hide behind women's skirts and hide their weapons in hospitals amount to something? Quit watching their promo movies, your gray matter (you have some somewhere, don't you?) will thank you.
and then your cute comments about 'dense zionists'... just shows how dense you are. try to enroll into Jerusalem U... although I'm afraid even the wisdom of the Internet won't help you to qualify. Calling Jews dense is like changing your nick to 'brainless'... can be done, but not entirely accurate (or so I presume).
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Morey 07-11-2007 6.53pm
or the Morey in our USS Liberty post that attempted to speak down to me as if I was some wet behind the ear kid, not knowing what I was talking about. I heard about this relay system that you use, but it's usually better hidden.Same one. And I've never used another identity on clipmarks, although it's a great idea. Thanks. And I still don't think you know what you're talking about. You've picked up a few ideas from some anti-Zionist websites and that's all. I want you to dig deeper.
If you intent continuing to use linguistic gymnastics like this, then I have no intention continuing our discourse.Oh, it was a joke. I thought it was pretty funny when someone told me (actually it was a West Point grad). And I was trying to make a point about the infallibility of statistics.
Y'know, it's an interesting phenomenon. Traditionally, the army has attracted a lot of young people who were looking for direction. But, Jews pursue post-secondary education well above the average rate, rather than jumping into the workforce (or armed forces). Anyway, you're numbers are waaaaay off, and I'd like to see some links (for everything!) . According to the Jewish War Veterans Association of the US, there are approximately 1,500 Jews presently serving in Iraq. There are around 150,000 Americans presently serving, which means 1% of the troops are Jewish. Jews represent around 2% of the American population, so you're 1/10 theory is wrong. But, as I wrote before, this is difficult to guage because it's based on 'declared religion' and many secular Jews (and those concerned about anti-Semitism in the forces) do not declare their religion, which is their choice. It's a little like trying to determine sexual assault cases. Rape figures seem to be climbing. Are they really, or are more women coming forward and reporting the assault?
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.54pm
For the record, lower military enrollment is a concern of the Jewish community.
This is an interesting editorial.
Attention: Where are the Jews in the U.S. military?
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/1712
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Morey 07-11-2007 6.57pm
You had more right to carve out a part of Europe than to return 2,000 years later to that part of the Middle East.
On what grounds?
Are Jews really Europeans? My family lived for a few hundred years in what is now the Ukraine. Does that make me Ukrainian? Ask yourself this question - and be honest - is an Irish Jew 'Irish'?
Your misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 C.E. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years. Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the Land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.
The Crusaders massacred many Jews during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century — years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement — more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.
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Morey 07-11-2007 7.12pm
If these numbers seem low, consider the effects of centuries of persecution under the Turks (which also decimated Palestine's Christian population). Non-Muslims under Islamic rule were known as Dhimmis; Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, 'protected' people were free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but were made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29) and motivate Dhimmis to convert. This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, as a form of institutionalized racism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
http://www.dhimmitude.org/
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Morey 07-11-2007 7.15pm
In a letter written nearly 1,000 years after the Roman expulsion, Rabbi Chisdai ibn Shaprut (c. 915 - c. 990) of Andalusia described himself as: "Chisdai, the son of Yitzchak, the son of Ezra, from the descendants of the exiled of Jerusalem who now live in Spain...we have been waiting many years, while we have been transferred from one captivity to another, and from exile to another. How strong is the hope and anticipation - one cannot contain oneself over this! How can I remain silent over the destruction of our glorious Temple and over the remnant of those who have excaped the sword and have been through fire and water? We have been left with only a small remnant of the many, and we have descended from our glory. We live in the diaspora and there is no power in our hands." Documents such as these testify to the enduring desire, but inability of returning in large numbers to the Holy Land.
The revolution in France brought about revolutionary changes in the life of the Jews in other lands. The Jews of the Middle Ages, it must be remembered, were a separate corporate entity, almost completely self-governing; they had their own courts, judges, police and a taxation system. As such they acted as a state within a state. Enlightenment promised new freedoms, but, in the view of many Jews, required loyalty to the community-at-large, and an abandonment of Jewish isolation.
As freedoms grew so too did the opportunity to finally restore the Jewish nation in Palestine. With Sir Moses Montefiore, whose journeys to Palestine began in the 1830's, Western Jewry began to occupy itself constructively with the Jewish restoration. There was established a fund for the cultivation of land in Palestine by the Jews. Sir Moses had the idea of obtaining extensive concessions, and so bringing about 'the return of thousands of our brethren to the lands of Israel.' This was nearly 100 years before the British Mandate.
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Morey 07-11-2007 7.33pm
There were other Jewish leaders who called for the return of the Jews to Palestine for decades before Theodor Herzl (1860 1904) wrote his influential pamphlet, 'The Jewish State.' But Herzl's work pushed the formation of a political movement to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
"We are a people - one people."
"We have honestly endeavored everywhere to merge ourselves in the social life of surrounding communities and to preserve the faith of our fathers. We are not permitted to do so. In vain are we loyal patriots, our loyalty in some places running to extremes; in vain do we make the same sacrifices of life and property as our fellowcitizens; in vain do we strive to increase the fame of our native land in science and art, or her wealth by trade and commerce. In countries where we have lived for centuries we are still cried down as strangers, and often by those whose ancestors were not yet domiciled in the land where Jews had already had experience of suffering... If we could only be left in peace.."
Early settlers faced innumerable cultural and economic difficulties. In 1800, the ravages of misadministration and war had reduced the population to about 200,000. By the 1880s, the land had recovered somewhat, but it was still poor and disease ridden. The total population was about 450,000. Jerusalem was a small town of 25,000 inhabitants, slightly more than half Jewish. Is it any wonder, with conditions so dire that settlement was slow? I'm astonished that anyone was able to make this journey. During the Middle Ages, when Jewish comunities in Europe and the Middle East were impoverished, it was practically impossible. Should anyone be surprised that Jews came to believe that only the Messiah could restore them to their homeland?
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Morey 07-11-2007 7.41pm
What percentage of the world's Jews reside in Israel? If it was as you portray then Israel would be over flowing. You would not need to scour Africa seeking out invitee today, citizen tomorrow 'Jews' after having exhausted the USSR. What's keeping them from their 'natural homeland''?Actually, around 40% of world Jewry now resides in Israel. Another 40% live in the US and the rest are still scattered. In a sense, the American experience, despite the numbers, is an anomoly. Many say America was both the best and worst thing to happen to Judaism. With moer freedoms and opportunities came assimilation. The US is largely secular and Reform. But, the Jewish experience outside the US is very different. Anyway, the Zionist movement never aimed to restore every Jew to Palestine. Zionism was a recognition that emancipation had failed in many places, and that a sanctuary was needed; it also recognized that many Jews identified through their religion alone, and had little interest in Jewish nationalism.
Am I serious? I don't know. I would not have trusted the Brits not to offer 2 or 3 of our precious 32 Irish counties for a West Israel state!Well, we agree here. The British were clearly trying to have their cake and eat it, too. They wanted to satisfy their Jewish and moreso religious Christian constituents without angering the Arabs, all the while trying to appease the Americans. They made promises to all parties that were either contradictory or simply impossible to keep.
in the past I had no problem with the legitimacy of the state of Israel. I read many Leon Uris books and gloried in the gore of innocent Palestinian lives.We agree again. Uris writes beautifully, but his books are one-sided even if based on fact. But, he's not an historian, he's a writer of fiction. There are many balanced works from Jewish and non-Jewish writers on Zionism, both fiction and non-fiction. It's important to read as much as you can, speak to ...
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Morey 07-11-2007 7.52pm
...speak to people who were there (I've been lucky enough to interview a British Naval officer who served in the Mediterranean 1947-1948, and a woman who assembled guns for the Irgun while incarcerated in Cyprus...the first-hand accounts are vital); and, seek out documents that illuminate the political machinations behind the scenes. We're now fortunate to be able to read declassified CIA documents: http://www.foia.cia.gov/
State department docs: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xix/28059.htm
and even old books online free. This one is great! http://www.archive.org/details/mymissioninisrae002443mbp
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.03pm
You will need more than 2 sources to persuade me that AIPAC has less influence than the Saudi lobby.Joe Murray and Israel
By Joseph Puder
FrontPageMagazine.com | April 12, 2007
- "Let’s be frank: in her 59 years as an independent state Israel has never asked that a single American soldier fight for or die for it. Nor have American troops ever been dispatched to the battlefield to defend Israel. Conversely, American troops have been dispatched to Arab-Muslim states (on more than one occasion) and, have died for them in the battlefield. Surely Murray remembers Kuwait 1990/1991 when American troops were sent to Saudi Arabia and, some were killed in the process of liberating Kuwait and protecting Saudi Arabia from certain invasion and take over by Saddam Hussein. Was that an Israel instigated war and did the U.S. fight it to protect Israel? The answer is rather obvious, they were sent to stem Saddam’s aggression, liberate Kuwait, and protect our “Saudi friends.”
- In 1958, President Eisenhower sent American troops to Beirut not to defend Israel but to save the pro-western Lebanese government from a Nasser instigated takeover by the United Arab Republic (UAR was the union between Egypt and Syria under Nasser’s leadership) – a client state of the Soviet Union. In 1970, the U.S. asked Israel to do its bidding by mobilizing its forces on the Syrian border to discourage the Syrian regime from attacking pro-western Jordan. Again in 1983, U.S. Marines were sent to Lebanon to secure the withdrawal of Palestinian terrorists, not to defend Israel....[b]Petro-dollars coming from the coffers of the likes of Saudi Arabia and other OPEC countries, including Iran, are used to undermine democracy in the region and simultaneously to divert attention from their notorious behavior towards their own people, and their involvement in Islamic anti-Western terror. Unlike AIPAC they have global reach, financial clout and resources to buy th
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.05pm
In any event, [former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Robert] Jordan in 2003 joined the long list of U.S. ambassadors and other former American officials working directly or indirectly for the Saudi royal family...Actually, it would be big news if a senior U.S. diplomat in the Middle East did not accept the warm embrace of the Saudis or other despots upon leaving the region. They are sprinkled all over Washington, particularly in such well-known Saudi-supported think tanks as the Middle East Institute. A former American ambassador to Saudi Arabia leads the institute -- Wyche Fowler Jr., chairman.
Edward Walker, president, was ambassador to Israel, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates. Former ambassador to the United Arab Emirates and deputy assistant secretary for the Near East David Mack is the institute's vice president. Also at the institute is Richard Parker, former ambassador to Algeria, Lebanon, and Morocco, and Michael Sterner, former ambassador to the United Arab Emirates and deputy assistant secretary of Near Eastern Affairs.
Chas. Freeman Jr., another former U.S. ambassador to the kingdom, is president of the Saudi-backed Middle East Policy Council. Another ambassador, Walter Cutler, leads the Saudi-backed Meridian International Center. From the Saudi point of view, all this is a good thing. The legendary former Saudi ambassador to Washington Prince Bandar bin Sultan
was quoted in the Washington Post a few years back as saying, "If the reputation then builds that the Saudis take care of friends when they leave office, you'd be surprised how much better friends you have who are just coming into office."
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/02/12/INGHIH
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.1-pm
Saudi PR/Lobby Firms Dodging Congressional Subpoenas
http://www.prwatch.org/node/1604
`Wahhabi Lobby' takes the offensive: radical Islamists take a page from the KGB's playbook and try to shape U.S. policy by politically manipulating policymakers with a well-funded influence campaign.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_28_18/ai_90307295/pg_1
US and oil lobby oust climate change scientist
http://www.guardian.co.uk/bush/story/0,7369,687650,00.html
"At the outset, the Arab states had little need for their own instrument because they were championed by the American petro-diplomatic complex— the conglomerate of oilmen, diplomats, missionaries, and CIA agents. They were an impressive galaxy: James Forrestal, the Secretary of Defense; Harold B. Minor, chief of the Office of Near Eastern Affairs in 1946 and 1947 and subsequently an employee of ARAMCO; William A. Eddy, the U.S. minister to Saudi Arabia between 1944 and 1946; Wallace Murray, chief of the Office of Near Eastern Affairs for many years; Rusk; Byroade; Henderson; and many, many more...
...Encouraged by American diplomats, pro-Arab Americans organized the Committee for Justice and Peace in the Holy Land to spur the 1948 campaign to rescind the partition resolution, warning of a resurgence of anti-Semitism if Jews insisted on implementation. Claiming credit for the reversal, they then disbanded. When [Kenen] began to lobby in 1951, King Ibn Saud called on U.S. diplomats to finance a pro-Arab organization to counter ours. That appeal resulted in a secret CIA subvention via a paper conduit, the "Dearborn Foundation" in Chicago, in order to establish and fund the American Friends of the Middle East (AFME), whose chairman, columnist Dorothy Thompson, advertised the event on June 27, 1951....One c
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.26
You have been honest about some of the ills of the 'democratic' Israel, so what would you trade for peace with the Arabs? The borders of 1948, 1967, when, any, while retaining your nuclear arsenal to ensure against an Arab first strike attack that Israel is know for.
always try to be honest.
This is an excellent question. What can Israel offer when no offer save self-destruction is good enough? You speak of the borders of 1948 and 1967. At both times there could have been a Palestinian state, much larger than anything that could now be negotiated. It's obvious that the continuing conflict has not been waged for the welfare of the Palestinian Arabs. It has been to undermine Israel with the goal of eliminating a country considered to be a Western outpost on Arab (Muslim) land. The Palestinians have been forced to remain in limbo as a deliberate 'open sore' which only the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state can heal.
The Arabs have always demanded 100% and nothing less, and this has resulted in loss after loss. There could have been a Palestinians state in 1948 but it wan't good enough. Why? because it wasn't the WHOLE Mandate. After the war, Israel offered compensation and a right of return to 100,000 Palestinians (an acknowldgement that at least SOME had been forced out of their homes) The Arabs states refused the offer, and wouldn't let the Palestinians negotiate for themselves. In 1967, Jordan was warned not to enter the war; it did anyway, and lost the West Bank. Israel offered to negotiate its return in exchange for peace. The response? The Arab League proudly responded, NO to peace, NO to recognition, NO to negotiations.You have been honest about some of the ills of the 'democratic' Israel, so what would you trade for peace with the Arabs? The borders of 1948, 1967, when, any, while retaining your nuclear arsenal to ensure against an Arab first strike attack that Israel is know for.
always try to be honest.
This is an excellent question. What can Israel offer when no offer save self-destruction is good enough? You speak of the borders of 1948 and 1967. At both times there could have been a Palestinian state, much larger than anything that could now be negotiated. It's obvious that the continuing conflict has not been waged for the welfare of the Palestinian Arabs. It has been to undermine Israel with the goal of eliminating a country considered to be a Western outpost on Arab (Muslim) land. The Palestinians have been forced to remain in limbo as a deliberate 'open sore' which only the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state can heal.
As of last year, Israel has actually relinquished control of 91% of land seized in 1967. Shouldn't that warrant some consideration? No, it's not 100%.
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.31pm
So, you ask, what can be offered? Before we reach that point, both sides must consider historical and religious imperatives. My view is that the Arab world, especially the Palestinians, must grow up and be realistic. They have very legitimate grievances but continue to squander every opportunity by demanding the impossible, and refusing to accept a single compromise. I believe in a negotiated peace, but this is only possible when both sides are willing to make concessions. Jewish moderates recognize the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as a struggle between two legitimate national narratives.
Yet, it's clear after so many years of conflict, the Arab world has made virtually no effort to understand the Jewish narrative. Instead, the Arabs have developed what can be called a "culture of denial," that denies the most basic truths of the Jewish story. According to this culture of denial, which is widespread throughout the Arab world, there was no Temple in Jerusalem, no ancient Jewish presence in the land, no Holocaust. This inability to understand who we are has been a disaster not only for Jews but also for Arabs, because it has repeatedly led them to underestimate Jewish vitality and ability to persevere.
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.35pm
And the Jewish world, within and without Israel, must go further in understanding the Arab worlds societal, ethnocultural and religious needs. Israel has concentrated on negotiating over borders and land claims but has failed to appreciate the consequences of Arab humiliation, and Islamic ignominy, from repeated drubbings at the hands of Jews (a perceived inferior).
Satisfying Arab (and Muslim) justice would, in my opinion, go a lot further to alleviate a prevelant sense of discomfiture than nitpicking over numbers of refugees and the difference between an "Armistice line" and a "border." Personally, I would like to see the Israeli government come clean on massacres at the hand of both the Haganah and the Irgun. (I don't believe as many happened as are sometimes reported, and both sides committed terrible atrocities but that's irrelevant. We know some Arab civilians died at the hands of Jewish soldiers). I would like to see an acknowledgement of killings; compensation to survivors and relatives; and a right of return to survivors of villages that were unnecessarily brutalized. We're not talking about that many people, and it would give the Arab world at least some sense of closure regarding these deaths. It would also be therapeutic to the Jewish world to be able to admit guilt, and ask for foregiveness. The act of Teshuvah is a basic Jewish imperative. http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Teshuvah_-_Fixing_Mistakes.asp
These sorts of acts would go much further to create the right atmosphere for negotiations. I must also add that if the Palestinians were to throw down their weapons, and completely renounce violence, there would be hundreds of thousands of Israelis on the streets demanding their government sit down and negotiate in good faith. Until these things happen, negotiations are useless. Until there is trust, peace cannot be forced. That's why every effort by the UN has failed; imposed ceasefires do not bring about peace; they simply prolong the ...
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.40pm
they simply prolong the conflict. The struggle between Jews and Arabs is over intangibles and mutual perceptions, not over a precise point on the map. It will not end until we face and defeat our personal demons, accept that compromise is an act of faith and not a sign of weakness, and admit once and for all, the children of Abraham are family, fellow indigenous sons of the same land, which belongs to neither of us but to G-d.
Since you asked.
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Morey 07-11-2007 8.57pm
This is the end of the quote that begins: "At the outset, the Arab states had little need for their own instrument because they were championed by the American petro-diplomatic complex.......One could rationalize the project—within limits. The CIA might have established AFME student counseling offices in Arab capitals as covers for intelligence operations. However, in Washington, AFME was using CIA funds to wage propaganda offensive against Israel, and we were resentful. While we were struggling to raise a modest $50,000 to $100,000 a year to finance our lobby, U.S. subsidies to AFME reached a peak of $400,000 a year. (Israel's Defense Line by SI Kenen, pg. 115)
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Righthand 07-15-2007 2.27pm
Waiting for the smell of the verbal diarrhoea to fade.
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Morey -7-16-2007 1.32am
Great response.
And it proves my point: you're either disinterested in, or incapable of, serious discussion. Complex problems don't have simple answers, even if you think it can all be boiled down to "Israel BAD." What's more disappointing is that you, being Irish, should understand better than most, that conflicts that may appear clear and straightforward are usually convoluted and even enigmatic. Were the 'troubles' simply a religious competition? Did family rivalry play a role? Were there political considerations? All of the above? None of the above?
My issue with you, my friend - you're only three years older than me so I suppose technically I can't call you 'old man' - from the beginning is that you're not interested in adding anything positive to the debate, just making accusations (generally misinformed) and spreading canards. I suppose I just don't understand that kind of negative hate-mongering.
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