"Arabs Will Not Progress Before They Face The Truth About Their Own History"Morey said 07-18-2007
The following article by Khairi Abaza appeared in the Lebanese English-language daily The Daily Star on July 4, 2007.
Righthand 07-19-2007 3.45am
As a Jewish American, I feel it is finally my responsibility to opine on behalf of my Palestinian sisters and brothers:
This is the story of Israel - a stolen land taken from the Palestinians. The Zionist movement was founded on the principle that the Jews deserved a land; a land that they could call their State; their home but they would only be able to identify themselves as a wholly Jewish state at the expense of uprooting an existent civilization, the indigenous Arab population.
The Jewish claim to Palestine is based on the existence of a kingdom that reigned for only 414 years.....
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Morey 07-19-2007 4..55pm
This is the story of Canada, Australia and the United States but not Israel, which had an indigenous Jewish population dating back at least (according to the archaeological record) 3,000 years.
Who are these Palestinians you speak of? At the time, and I'm speaking here of the mid- to late 1800s, which was when European Zionists were beginning to settle in earnest, Palestine was occupied by a very diverse group that included Arabs, Druze, Bedouin, Jews, Christians, Samaritans, Turks, Egyptians and others. They were in no sense an homogeneous population, and [u]no attempt had been made to merge these various peoples into anything resembling a nation or state. In other words, their was no attempt had been made to merge these various peoples into anything resembling a nation or state. In other words, their was no claim to self-determination by any of them, except the Jews. Arab nationalism was based solely on an imperialistic need to drive out foreigners. Is that something a nation can be based on? We're seeing the results of that sort of mindset now in Gaza, where familial clans and warlords have defined identity - not Palestinian nationalism.
But, let's stay focused. Let me ask you this question: you say you're Jewish. On what grounds? Are you observant?
Morey 07-19-2007 5.24pm
Righthand, since this is an essentially an internal debate on Jewish identity, you'll have to get Jennifer Balkan to respond to me. She identifies as Jewish, even citing halacha in her original article, but is probably secular. Whatever. It's her choice, but millions of Jews identify as members of a nationality. And that's their choice. Anyway, the article is riddled with historical errors, half-truths and a few outright lies.
But since you gave me a Jewish quote about Israel, here's one from an
Arab: "Reject hate, embrace love. Bring out the best in Islam by showing your compassion, gratitude and forgiveness. Make the holy land truly holy by giving Israel and the Jewish people the respect they deserve in their tiny little country. This is not a crisis over land. It is a crisis of the soul; a crisis in our faith, judgement and self confidence. Israel should not be regarded as an enemy, but as a blessing to our neighborhood. We need not fear peace, but embrace it."
Nonie Darwish.And this is from the Koran: [17:104] "And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, scatter and live all over the world and when the end of the world is near we will gather you again into the Promised Land."
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Amergin 07-19-2007 6.12pm
The waft of self righteous comment is overpowering. I am neither Jewish or Arab, but I respect both for their contributions to the world. No side is right in this conflict, both have committed wrongs and the insane on both sides incense ordinary people to rage. The fact of the matter is that while second generation Jews are pursuing damages from the German government for the psychological trauma of the Holocaust, the Lebanese,Palestinian and any other neighbouring nation that poses a threat is crushed ruthlessly underfoot.
Who is wearing the jackboot now? As for compassion maybe if you put down the gun and extended the hand of friendship, the people pushed to despair might see some hope and return the gesture. When their is no hope, desperate measures are seen as normal. The Jewish Holocaust is not unique, ask the Armenian's, Irish, Native Americans, most of South American nations, Chechen and countless other nations.
So get off your high horse and deal with it. The problem the Jews have with the Palestinians is that they took Moshe's advice and picked up the stones at their feet to hurl against their oppressors.
Morey 07-19-2007 7.50pm
As for compassion maybe if you put down the gun and extended the hand of friendship, the people pushed to despair might see some hope and return the gesture.
Amergin
But this has been done MANY times.
Jews have no problems with 'Palestinians.' The Arabs are our cousins, and they have very legitimate grievances. But, there are only two solutions to the problem as it now stands: voluntary self-destruction by israel, which is obviously a non-starter, or a negotiated compromise that ensures security and respect for Israel, and independance and justice for the Palestinians. And I believe that a negotiated settlement is possible, but only after we stop empowering extremists and condoning violence as a reasonable means of achieving a political goal (ie. the destruction of Israel)
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Righthand 07-19-2007 8.01pm
The Jewish Holocaust is not unique, ask the Armenian's, Irish, Native Americans, most of South American nations, Chechen and countless other nations.
Amergin
Amergin, excellent but...
This will not be heard. Zionist have to believe that their suffering was unique. Try it. It is also the way that the Zionist believe that the effects of the Holocaust is passed down the generations. That feeling of unique victimhood is needed to justify their inhuman treatment of the Palestinians.
- Their society is being destroyed by their behaviour! Just like SEX OFFENDERS, those that were ABUSED have now become the ABUSERS. The cycle must be stopped for the sake of mankind.
- In life the majority in the middle follow either of the two extremes, the good or evil. Since 911 it is evil that dominates with one state benefiting. FEAR is their currency. A world at war is their hope. Their finger is on the trigger of the assassin's gun even if many levels apart, particularly if others are blamed.
And re the article quoted. If I could not find one disgruntled Christian Lebanese willing to sell out to Zionism, then I'm not an Irishman. And the title could just as easily be "Israel will not progress before they face the Truth"
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Morey 07-19-2007 10.36pm
Absolute rubbish.
Jewish groups define the Holocaust as unique because it was. As is each and every other genocide. Each is unique to its people, time and place. That doesn't mean one groups has suffered more than any other. But, I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find another community that lost 1 in 3 - seriously think about that for a minute - ONE in THREE Jews died during the 20th century. That's why it's so offensive when groups talk about Palestinian genocide - not to belittle their suffering which is real - but to speak of Palestinian ethnic cleansing, when their population has INCREASED ten-fold isn't just disingenuous, it's insulting.
Jewish groups have been at the forefront of efforts to help stop the genocide in Darfur. It is actually now a growing issue in Israel that the government has agreed to deport Sudanese refugees (they're FLOCKING to racist, apartheid Israel!) as per an agreement with Egypt, but Jews within and outside Israel are hoping money can be found to allow them to stay. Israel has already donated MILLIONS of dollars while other countries have done nothing. After a substantial donation in May, Israel is now on the top 10 list of countries who have donated most to Darfur refugees.
As for the Holocaust, it's worth noting that Holocaust Museums regularly feature exhibits on the murder of Christians, Roma, Gays and Lesbians and others. PREVENTION of future genocides is a major function of Holocaust, indeed Jewish education. Frankly, I think you've been reading too much Norman Finkelstein.
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Morey 07-19-2007 10.38pm
And it should come as no surprise that many First Nations peoples identify not with Palestinians but with ISRAEL, a nation that has survived and been reborn despite systemic persecution. "We're looking at you [Israelis] as sort of our mentors, how you've gotten your land back, how you're excelling at economic development. You're doing really well," said O'Brien, the AFN regional chief for the Yukon territory.
"One of the most striking aspects of the Jewish experience is the incredible resiliency of the Jewish people. That is quite similar to the indigenous peoples, or the first peoples of Canada. ..We've both been persecuted. We've both been discriminated against. We've been denied our homeland. We've been denied our rightful place in the world," said
AFN National Chief Phil Fontaine. http://www.standwithus.com/news_post.asp?NPI=796 _____________
Amergin 07-19-2007 10.59pm
But have you really tried with honesty in your hearts or with the club behind your back. The only way to destroy fundamentalism is to make it unattractive to the masses. A multi headed hydra first needs to be starved of it's breeding ground, hate, poverty and despair, to be replaced by hope, dialogue and prosperity. Focus on the younger generations, squeeze out those who seek to destroy. Give the Palestinians a goal. I do not believe for a second that Israel should drop it's guard, but some old fashioned finesse to it's security is better than a general bludgeon on the population. Compromise is the only option, all else will fail.
The Nazis saw themselves as a shining example to humanity as well. Don't use your peoples suffering as an excuse or justification for the injustices of the middle east. Who guards the guardians ? It is a slippery path you walk upon.
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Morey 07-20-2007 12.12am
If you're saying that
Israel has
over-reacted at times, and in effect (even if not in desire)
committed collective punishment, we agree. It's a very tricky situation
. I was actually at a checkpoint 3 years ago and it was a very unfortunate situation. And most are nothing like the what you see on TV. Here's an actual checkpoint:
http://canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/19639.shtmlBut, I would add, I've also spoken to Israelis who have had to man these checkpoints and they're understandably very conflicted. But they've also described the terrible anguish and guilt they feel when they hear that a bomber has struck and may have come through their checkpoint. There needs to be a better system - no question - but it works both ways. if there were no attempts to smuggle bombs through, there would be no checkpoints.
When I first visited the region, back in 1978, I had to pass through only one quick crossing. I walked freely through Bethlehem, Hebron and other places in the West Bank. The economy was booming then because Israelis could visit and shop in Arab towns, and Palestinians could work in Israel. This was what the extremists wanted stopped, and they succeeded because, in part, Israel fell into a trap and responded exactly as terror groups expected they would.
Were there other choices? Probably, but hindsight is always 20/20. It's funny to think that a few years ago one of the harshest critics of a security fence (or whatever else you want to call it) was Ariel Sharon, who was loathe to define Israel's borders as not including Judea and Samaria. Things change; that's why the only really important question is: what can be done NOW?
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Righthand 07-20-2007 6.35pm
Absolute rubbish
Jewish groups define the Holocaust as unique because it was. As is each and every other genocide. Each is unique to its people, time and place. That doesn't mean one groups has suffered more than any other. But, I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find another community that lost 1 in 3 - seriously think about that for a minute - ONE in THREE Jews.
...Morey
Ireland lost 1 in 2 - seriously think abut that for a minute - ONE in TWO Irish, in three years!!! We bled people in every generation up until very very recently.
They became the most loyal American, Australian, British or wherever. They never tried to keep a foot in each of two countries. They were the wrong religion and were badly discriminated against in each country. We are as proud of the contribution that our Irish departed have made in difficult circumstances in their new countries as we are of things here in Ireland.
Are we complaining? No. We wanted the freedom to manage ourselves good or bad, by ourselves in our OWN country. We gave up the 'Begging Bowl' and are now at peace with all our neighbours while living in the most peaceful, prosperous place on earth.
Living up to the tag of 'most loved nation' is not a choir but a privilege - our travelling sports supporters are officially the best. The tag may not be full deserved internationally but among white, english speaking nation, we have no serious opposition!
Contrast that with the ZIONIST state of ISRAEL.
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Amergin 07-20-2007 8.15pm
I agree with righthand. The Irish have learned to live with their history and move forward. But the difference between the nations is that we have integrated and learned to live with each other. We are leaving the fallacies of religion behind. The bigotries of the one true god of both sides only shows the ignorance of man. When the English left Ireland both nations shook hands and moved on. It was not easy but finally we are at a stage of mutual friendship and respect. If you want peace round up all the religious fundamentalists on both sides and let them kill each other. Maybe the innocents can then get on with living.
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Morey 07-20-2007 9.47pm
Not to minimize your suffering, but the figure I see everywhere is
one in nine, over a 4 or 5 year period. Regardless, it was devastating and the British bear responsibility for a crime against humanity. Millions of people left Ireland, broken and destitute. You're correct that the Irish were discriminated against in many places, and they certainly played a crucial role in the growth of the US and Canada.We don't disagree here.
But, we're also talking about an event that happened over 150 years ago! For pete's sake, seriously. I would think that the emotional psychological effects on the generation that endured the famine must have been overwhelming! I was born less than 20 years after the Holocaust. I can name relatives who died, and where it happened. It's still real to me, as it is to those who survived, and those who witnessed the war. You just can't compare. Ask me again in 100 years and we'll see how things are going. I can tell you that attitudes are already changing; young Jews identify less and less with the Holocaust (which is at it should be) and more with positive aspects of Jewish life.
As for Irish-British relations, are either of you seriously trying to tell me that Ireland and Britain kissed and made up and everything has been peachy ever since? Come one. At least two of us here are old enough to remember Irish bombs blowing up in London. And what about Irish republican sympathy for the Nazis during the
Second World War (and blatant anti-Semitism to boot) What sort of selective amnesia are you suffering from? The British and Irish "moved on"? Hardly.
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Morey 07-20-2007 9.48pm
Amergin, you strike
a half-truth with your final comment. The problem since the beginning has been extremists on both sides who have prevented moderates from reaching a compromise. But, this problem has been acerbated by
European (and others) cajoling and condoning these extremists. Allowing, for example,
Yassir Arafat to address
the UN was the beginning of decades of terrorist activities by the
PLO and every other group that recognized that violence successfully got media attention and sympathy. Had this group (and others) been sidelined at the start, a moderate government in exile might have emerged that could negotiate with Israel in good faith. Alas, it was in the interests of the international community to keep this conflict going.
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Amergin 07-20-2007 10.55pm
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. That is why history is key to peace, learn from it. Would you rather a people had no voice ? Have the millennia of diaspora taught you nothing ? Where was the humility in your victory ? You have assumed the arrogance of your oppressors, be careful that the walls do not come down on you.
History is written by the victors and the first casualty of war is the truth.
As for 150 years ago, my nation was on the brink of death from starvation and the greed of foreigners who believed they owned the land of my people. Ring a bell or are you so blinkered you fail to see the comparison. Again trivialise the suffering of others and blame everyone else for your problems.
But when you finally leave the siege mentality behind you and realise that the whole world is not
Anti-Semitic. MAYBE YOU COULD SEE THE WORLD THROUGH THE EYES OF THOSE WHO LIVE IN FEAR OF THE LIBERAL STATE.
No one seeks appeasement with lunatics, only firm peace through strength of character. Or have you forgotten that this was what saw your people through hatred and oppression. Now the power is your hands the lessons have been forgotten.
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Amergin 07-20-2007 11.30pm
As for Blatant Anti-Semitism, the Jewish community was a very respected part of the community in Ireland. Your first President was raised in Dublin and fused with the idealism of the new republic. The Goldberg family in Cork were defenders of the poor and defenceless. They were Lord Mayors and respected businessmen. They were pillars of our community who still command respect to this day. We have a section of the city still called Jew town to this day. My grandfather used to light the fires of Jewish families on their day of rest and they still hold a fond place in his memory.
As for the bombings in the troubles, they were committed by a small hardcore group of republicans.
As for moving forward the Irish nation in a referendum relinquished the right to call the north of Ireland theirs in the constitution of the republic. So paving the way to peace talks with the Unionists. We respected the rights of the Unionists beliefs. The Irish flag is a tri-colour, green being the nationalists[catholic majority], white representing peace between both groups and orange [protestant majority]. It came about with the foundation of our state and is meant to symbolise peace on our island. Our flag will always represent peace to its people. So again look to history for your lessons and learn some humility.
As for sympathy towards
Nazism large numbers of Irish men and women joined the allied forces to fight the
Nazis, in the Spanish civil war large numbers of my country men saw the evils of fascism and fought in the International brigades. Wherever there was oppression there was an Irishman fighting it. And that was the difference we fought for justice against desperate odds, you ran away and died. Now the boot is on your foot you think nothing of wielding it freely. So stop feeling sorry for yourself.
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Morey 07-23-2007 2.35am
First off, my apologies if my wording let you to believe I was accusing ALL Irish of anti-Semitism. That was not my intent. It was an aside about one particular right-wing group in Ireland. I'm well aware of Ireland's hospitality toward all newcomers. A few years ago, I actually spent some time travelling through Europe with a charming Dubliner who never said a disparaging word about anyone. My point was that sweeping statements about relations between the Irish and British are untenable; there will always be groups who will feel (and act upon) these bitter feelings. And I HAVE known many of Irish descent who have spoken very angrily of the British;
not everyone has 'moved on.'
You say yourself,
"Finally we are at a stage of mutual friendship and respect." This process has taken MANY, MANY years, and cost many lives. What should be obvious is that violence tends to be perpetuated when extremists are permitted to hijack political agendas; this is as true for Ireland as it is Palestine. There have been many attempts at reconciliation and compromise going back at least 80 years. Frankly, if both Arabs and Jews had been left to their own devices, this conflict would have ended decades ago; it has been the interference of governments that benefited from the conflict, at first the British, later the Soviets and Americans, the Arab states, and certainly right-wing groups within Israel and the Arab world, that has time and time again prevented Arabs and Jews from finding a middle ground that provided both security and justice to both parties. In 1938, a
British newspaper wrote,
“[the locals] have no great sympathy with the Arab rebels who are trying to stem the tide of Jewish immigration and demanding an Arab government for Palestine; they merely want to be left alone to sow and harvest, to marry and find the wherewithal in these troubled times to bring up their families."
From News Chronicle, quoted in Mufti of Jerusalem: The Story of Haj Amin el Husseini
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Morey 07-23-2007 2.36am
From News Chronicle, quoted in Mufti of Jerusalem: The Story of Haj Amin el Husseini (London: V.Gollancz, 1947), p. 20.
Has much changed? I don't think so.
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Morey 07-23-2007 3.14am
That said, it's time to end this discussion. It's obvious from the rampant generalizations, the hallow rhetoric and cliches, that you don't really have the background for this sort of discussion. I enjoy debating for the opportunity to learn; I cannot learn from those who know nothing other than what they`ve read on one-sided websites and from biased opinion pieces. I was particularly dismayed when my response to Righthand`s question about future options (on another discussion) elicited a reaction so childish, I can only assume he didn`t understand what I wrote.
I have no desire to condescend. I also don`t have time to respond to unoriginal screeds. Debate and argue for yourselves, please. You have both consistently ignored what I`ve written, missed the point, continued to lie even after I`ve provided evidence to the contrary and generally blustered in the most self-righteous, patronizing tone imaginable. Yes, Ireland is wonderful. Ignore centuries of conflict within Ireland, the Fenian invasion of Canada, mob violence in the US and Australia, support for Irish terrorists, etc. Frankly, I`d be pretty impressed if all you gave the world was Irish Whisky, W.B. Yeats and the Undertones. But, Ireland isn`t perfect and neither are the Irish. I would also remind you that comparing Ireland and Israel is silly; Israel isn`t a ``white, english speaking nation``. Again, your lack of knowledge betrays you. Although, it`s interesting that for a few years during the 1940`s, both the Irish (IRA), and the Jews were fighting British Imperialism at opposite ends of the earth.
Anyway, I still implore you both to dig deeper. This is a terrific, balanced website that provides detail and historical context. Please check it out:
http://www.mideastweb.org/
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Amergin 07-25-2007 9.34am
Thanks for the heads up.
It is always important to dig deeper. Maybe you can suggest some reading material.
I have read the Biographies of
Chaim Herzog, Moshe Dayan, Simon Wiesenthal and Golda Meir. Forgive the spelling.
Also
Max Dimonts History of the Jewish people, not to mention all the various articles and books on the region I can find.
As for thinking that Israel is completely white and English speaking, well give me some credit.
From Russia to Ethiopia, the Jewish way of life is varied and unique.
As for Ireland being perfect well we are not, but we would like others to learn from our mistakes. Especially the madness of religious war.
As for the IRA and the Hagannah being similar I agree.
As for our difference of opinions I think that you could learn even from the comments you believe to be biased.
If you could open eyes in a heated debate and make people reflect on your point, maybe you should ask why people are so upset with your nation.
And why are they so vehement about it ?
Place yourself in a foreigners shoes looking in, not aware of the daily alerts, or the dangers from without.
Forget your military training and think like a foreign civilian. You might come to see why they think like that, even if you do not agree.
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Amergin 07-25-2007 9.45am
As for Ireland and Israel being different, I think not.
We are both small nations, full of contradictions married to a life of misery and war. Puppets to the bigger players on the world stage.
Yet all both want is peace and the right to function as we wish. We are a step nearer I admit and I hope someday you are at a stage nearer to peace.
Not only for Israel, but, everyone in the region.
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Amergin 07-25-2007 9.48am
P.S. Bookmarked the site for future debate.
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Morey 07-25-2007 8.29pm
You may enjoy this interview.
Conor Cruise O'Brien: The State of the Zionist State
http://www.meforum.org/article/81 Your points are well taken. I appreciate that you have already dug deeper than most, although I was put off by some of the rhetoric that really didn't apply. It's obviously a complex issue. My concern is with people who demonize Israel (or the Arabs for that matter) without appreciating how many players are involved. Demonizing one party to a conflict while practically ignoring the abuse of another is counter-productive, leading to less dialogue and further violence. I prefer the Canadian approach: keep the lines of dialogue open (as much as possible) and always try to find balance. There's no question that Israel has been forced to take unfortunate measures to defend its sovereignty and the lives of its citizens. That these actions have resulted in civilian deaths is also not in question. But, nothing happens in a vacuum - except in the minds of those who see Israeli as solely at fault, ignoring the historical context, and simple cause and effect. The most frustrating aspect of this attitude is the absolute futility of it; Arabs and their supporters, who focus on the 1948 'disaster' miss an essential point: how do we achieve peace now? Anyone who calls for the end of Israel does not want peace: it's that simple. Since it should obvious that Israel will never voluntarily committ suicide, the only other option is a full-scale regional war, or a devastating nuclear attack, which will surely demand an Israeli response. I cannot believe any rational person would choose this scenario over a negotiated settlement. And yet many people do. My heartfelt belief is that the extremists on both sides must be sidelined, while giving support to moderate voices of peace. I've been there many times and can tell you in all sincerity, what both Arabs and Jews want is normality.
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Morey 07-25-2007 8.31pm
As for reading materials, I'll get back to you. I have a great reading list around somewhere. If you like biographies, check out Sadat's autobiography. It's very interesting. I also loved an out-of-print book now available free online: My Mission In Israel, by James G. McDonald, 1948-1951. He was the first US representative to Israel. His insights into the strained relationship between the President and the US State Department are very important.
http://www.archive.org/details/mymissioninisrae002443mbp_____________
Righthand 07-26-2007 7.14pm
Great Irish Famine. "Stabalising at half the level prior to the faminee"The population of Ireland continued to fall for 70 years, stabilising at
half the level prior to the famine.
This long-term decline ended in the west of the country only in 2006,
"Arabs Will Not Progress Before They Face The Truth About Their Own History"
